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The ultimate hypocrisy of the Doping Bible Thumpers

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The ultimate hypocrisy of the Doping Bible Thumpers

Old 07-29-07, 07:00 PM
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The ultimate hypocrisy of the Doping Bible Thumpers

Pro sports is an entertainment business. Period. Mistaking it for the kind of sports you played as a kid is preposterous. We ask 200 guys to complete an event as grueling as the Tour de France (unless they had done it for 100+ years nobody would ever believe men could actually DO that race) in front of a global TV audience of 100 million + which supports an industry that feeds millions of Euros into the European economy and provides TV ratings, advertising exposure and income for thousands of employees in related industries. And then we're suprised when professional adult athletes seek every edge? Or get 'morally outraged' when they feel pressured to do so because the sport's organizers have no consistent way of enforcing the doping controls?

I'd agree that pro sports need to get clean. But please, PLEASE, spare us the idiotic moralizing already. These guys aren't villians or scoundrels. They're trying to deal with a system that's been so distorted by the money running through it that it may not be fixable. And I'm not at all sure most fans WANT it fixed. They just want the scandals to stop. Whether or not they're all doping or not... I personally will watch sports either way. I suspect most sports fans are rather ambivalent. Anybody who thinks the Tour de France is dead just doesn't get it. You can't kill big time pro sports.

Getting the doping under control has far greater societal implications - and it's essential. But do I want all pro sports shut down because this pisses off Doc Ray? Even if I did, it would never happen.

But no. I want my Tour DAY France. And my baseball. And my football. And of course, I'll get it. Because no matter how hard they thump their bibles, pro sports will survive. Because it's really about the money, and the masses want their entertainment. Pcad included.
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Old 07-29-07, 07:12 PM
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Interesting point of view.
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Old 07-29-07, 07:17 PM
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Preachers have never been corrupted by money - I mean, they all live in shacks and barely have enough to survive - right? Ah, for the days of the air conditioned dog house of Jim and Tammy Baker...
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Old 07-29-07, 07:26 PM
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Kind of like the joke everytime an injured Football player limps back onto the field and the announcers go all ga ga about how tough they are to play in such pain Like they can feel a thing at that point.

Interesting take on cycling. So what has done more damage to the sport, the "doping" or the effort to clean it up???
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Old 07-29-07, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Kind of like the joke everytime an injured Football player limps back onto the field and the announcers go all ga ga about how tough they are to play in such pain Like they can feel a thing at that point.

Interesting take on cycling. So what has done more damage to the sport, the "doping" or the effort to clean it up???
Flip a coin. But the sport DOES have to get clean. Or die trying. For several reasons.

But it won't die. You really can't kill pro sports. The most tiresome aspect of this are the internet preachers and journalists who harangue us with their stupid morality barrages. The journalists are looking for readers and $, so I understand the axes they grind. The internet preachers are just being idiots.
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Old 07-29-07, 07:49 PM
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Ill take the so called effort to clean up cycling over the baseball commish sitting in San Fan waiting for Mr Bonds to break a record that the commish knows is tainted.As least cycling is making some effort to clean itself of this mess.
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Old 07-29-07, 07:56 PM
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Oooookay.

But, seriously, what does this have to do with Bibles or thumpers? I haven't seen any of either wrapped up in this.
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Old 07-29-07, 08:22 PM
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Yes please leave the bible thumpers alone to their own riches... and I dont mean the ones from heaven!!!
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Old 07-29-07, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
Flip a coin. But the sport DOES have to get clean. Or die trying. For several reasons.

But it won't die. You really can't kill pro sports. The most tiresome aspect of this are the internet preachers and journalists who harangue us with their stupid morality barrages. The journalists are looking for readers and $, so I understand the axes they grind. The internet preachers are just being idiots.
I must take exception with this Patentcad - you being a Cannondale ride like myself, it pains me that you would be so inaccurate. The internet preachers are not being idiots - they ARE idiots..

I hope you will agree...
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Old 07-29-07, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Oooookay.

But, seriously, what does this have to do with Bibles or thumpers? I haven't seen any of either wrapped up in this.
It's a metaphor for overzealous soapbox moralizing. No offense to any religion intended. You are correct, it has nothing to do with bibles. But the thumping, and the beat... goes on.
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Old 07-29-07, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
So what has done more damage to the sport, the "doping" or the effort to clean it up???
Evidently, the latter.
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Old 07-29-07, 09:35 PM
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Maybe you should tell that to Tom Boonen, David Millar, Cadel Evans.....


Let me summarize your thoughts P-CAD:
(a) You think the sport needs to clean itself up;
(b) But you are against demonizing the dopers, since they have no choice


I would be fine with this line of thinking if the athletes themselves were more honest with the public. Instead, we had Lance Armstrong enforcing the code of silence with Seimoni who testified against Dr. Ferrari. Instead we have guys like Pereiro and Bettinni arguing against stronger doping controls. Instead we have guys like Rasmussan evading testing authorities.

See where I am going with this. I am perfectly sympathetic with the athletes. We demand to be entertained, and yet question how we are entertained. But I am with a guy like Dave Zabriski. He is all for DNA and increased testing. He realizes it is a problem, and is fine with stronger controls. He admits that due to the free-rider syndrom (i.e. - unless I am guaranteed that no one else cheats, my competitor's might cheat, therefore, I should cheat or risk success and money) there needs to be more controls.

I am sympathetic for a guy like Dave, who likely dopes, but does not want to, but feels he has to. I am not sympathetic for a guy like Bettinni, who is trying to obstruct the progress in terms of cleaning up this sport.
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Old 07-29-07, 10:40 PM
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I had no problem writing off pro Baseball and Football. Never was interested in any other pro sports, especially Golf (where the fans need dope). I never liked trying to keep up with all of the trivia/stats anyway so writing off cycling should free a few brain cells for other uses (sacrifice for beer).

These guys don't have a gun to their heads making them ride/dope/cheat. They're big boys (and girls), if they don't like the system no one's making them stay. They know that going in, and they make the choice anyway. They deserve every bit of scorn and suspicion that they get.
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Old 07-30-07, 03:27 AM
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It is quite arguable that these are professional adults who should be allowed to use performance enhancing substances like EPO the same way men use Viagra (not Pcad of course). I don't see it that way myself - primarily because it's an incredibly slippery slope that would encourage the use of those substances by youthful school athletes, so I'm essentially in agrement with the anti-doping crowd. But make no mistake, this is primarliy a problem for sport organizers. Expecting individual pro athletes to adhere to clean competition out of some higher internal moral code is delusional.

In the meantime whether the athlete engages in doping because they feel compelled to against their will or whether they do it willingly - the net result is the same.
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Old 07-30-07, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 'nother View Post
These guys don't have a gun to their heads making them ride/dope/cheat. They're big boys (and girls), if they don't like the system no one's making them stay. They know that going in, and they make the choice anyway. They deserve every bit of scorn and suspicion that they get.
Im not certain that they always have a clear thinking free will. Cycling seems to attract an almost addictive personality. For many riders it is thier life, thier identity. They would do anything to stay in the sport. Not just Pro's, I've seen Cat V's choose a training ride over their kids birthday.

Im no psychiatrist so im probably not explaining this as well as I could, but this sport seems to rob some level of common sense from its participants. Riders get caught up in it and dont see the obvious.
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Old 07-30-07, 06:08 AM
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Morals/Ethics != Bible
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Old 07-30-07, 06:12 AM
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Is that a thump or a slam?
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Old 07-30-07, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I want my Tour DAY France. And my baseball. And my football.
You were OK in my book till you mentioned baseball. Now you just suck.
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Old 07-30-07, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Doggus View Post
You were OK in my book till you mentioned baseball. Now you just suck.
I don't have to mention baseball to suck. All I have to do is ride my racing bike.
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Old 07-30-07, 08:27 AM
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I find it funny that the doping trolls manage to find a few select riders they believe are clean. They defend their "clean" riders with the same arguments that others use to defend their riders of choice.

Richard

Originally Posted by VT Biker View Post
Maybe you should tell that to Tom Boonen, David Millar, Cadel Evans.....


Let me summarize your thoughts P-CAD:
(a) You think the sport needs to clean itself up;
(b) But you are against demonizing the dopers, since they have no choice


I would be fine with this line of thinking if the athletes themselves were more honest with the public. Instead, we had Lance Armstrong enforcing the code of silence with Seimoni who testified against Dr. Ferrari. Instead we have guys like Pereiro and Bettinni arguing against stronger doping controls. Instead we have guys like Rasmussan evading testing authorities.

See where I am going with this. I am perfectly sympathetic with the athletes. We demand to be entertained, and yet question how we are entertained. But I am with a guy like Dave Zabriski. He is all for DNA and increased testing. He realizes it is a problem, and is fine with stronger controls. He admits that due to the free-rider syndrom (i.e. - unless I am guaranteed that no one else cheats, my competitor's might cheat, therefore, I should cheat or risk success and money) there needs to be more controls.

I am sympathetic for a guy like Dave, who likely dopes, but does not want to, but feels he has to. I am not sympathetic for a guy like Bettinni, who is trying to obstruct the progress in terms of cleaning up this sport.
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Old 07-30-07, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
It is quite arguable that these are professional adults who should be allowed to use performance enhancing substances like EPO the same way men use Viagra (not Pcad of course).
This is how many who are content to look the other way often frame the counter-argument, something along the lines of "those who live in glass houses..." But that is a stupid and incorrect argument. Doping athletes have willingly signed a contract and obtained a license specifically stating they would follow certain rules. Among those rules are that they will not allow certain substances into their body or allow certain procedures or techniques to be performed. And they tell fans and the press that they are following those rules. Then they get caught red-handed breaking those rules and proclaim their innocence until well beyond the time it is possible to do so. There is your hypocrisy. Now, back to the argument of comparing this to a normal person taking Viagra: I also don't personally take the li'l blue pill, but I would have no problem doing so if needed, because I have not signed a contract stating I wouldn't.

If you wanted to go this line, a better argument would be to ask something like, "why is it not okay for doping cyclists to cheat, but it is okay for husbands to have affairs?", which of course is equally ridiculous. Neither one is okay.


I don't see it that way myself - primarily because it's an incredibly slippery slope that would encourage the use of those substances by youthful school athletes
You are kidding yourself if you don't think it's already encouraging this, and has been for some time. Of course, you are right that doping won't make events like the TdF disappear. Probably doesn't even really scare off sponsors. Too much $$$ at stake, this is why pro football and such have no problems. But it cheats those fans who would like to see an honest competition, and who don't believe that can be achieved when doping (or other cheating) is allowed to continue. It arguably cheats even pro-doping fans, because every now and then someone they idolize gets caught and ejected mid-competition. But probably no one really minds that -- part of the spectacle, right?!


Expecting individual pro athletes to adhere to clean competition out of some higher internal moral code is delusional.
That is the conclusion I've reached.


In the meantime whether the athlete engages in doping because they feel compelled to against their will or whether they do it willingly - the net result is the same.
But it does make a difference in who you view as being at fault. Ultimately it is the athlete. They always have the opportunity to walk away.

But it is all pretty sad.

Last edited by 'nother; 07-30-07 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 07-30-07, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Im not certain that they always have a clear thinking free will. Cycling seems to attract an almost addictive personality. For many riders it is thier life, thier identity. They would do anything to stay in the sport. Not just Pro's, I've seen Cat V's choose a training ride over their kids birthday.

Im no psychiatrist so im probably not explaining this as well as I could, but this sport seems to rob some level of common sense from its participants. Riders get caught up in it and dont see the obvious.
Yeah, you're probably right. They should all get a pass, I guess.


BTW I have been caught up in drinking a lot of beer lately. I'm not sure I have a clear thinking free will, my buddies all keep saying I really need to drive myself home even though I'm totally hammered. But they're pretty convincing! And it sure is more convenient than calling a cab or someone else sober. I have kind of an addictive personality, so it's probably okay if I drive drunk. Actually I should practically be entitled to it! Right?
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Old 07-30-07, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by reef58 View Post
I find it funny that the doping trolls manage to find a few select riders they believe are clean. They defend their "clean" riders with the same arguments that others use to defend their riders of choice.

Richard
reef58:

You are clearly missing the point of my inclusion with those athletes. I never said they were necessarily clean. I was bringing them up because during THIS Tour, they were outspoken when it came to doping, and were essentially bible-thumping as P-Cad stated. They could well be huge hypocrites.

Comprehend a little more reef58, post a little less. That is all.
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Old 07-30-07, 11:08 AM
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It is not just you VT. Go read the TDF thread.

Richard
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Old 07-30-07, 01:34 PM
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Doping is currently illegal because the government can't find a good enough way to extract tax $$$ from it without looking morally inept. Once that hurdle is overcome, doping will be legalized and we will no longer have this 'problem'.
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