Hopeless Attempt At Gaining Speed
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Az
Posts: 330
Bikes: Scott cr1. Scott Plasma.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Hopeless Attempt At Gaining Speed
Just interested to hear what you did to find an efficient, fast position while riding a tt bike? I recently built up a dedicated tt bike and have been experimenting with rail position/ seat height and praying mantis vs. traditional bar position. Besides the extremes, without any real controls it seems futile to find a position this way. Maybe given time it will become a bit more innate.
I'm not really looking for info to help me per se. Rather, I'd like to read about your journey to find the position that you found works best for you. For me, I got fit similar to the road bike (read KOPS knee extension). Have read too many articles about angles. Made endless adjustments and "runs" to see if anything drastic happened. Measured, plumbed, mirrored all to find the more I inquire the more confused I get. I'm left thinking TT fit with no controls has got to be the most hopeless attempt at gaining speed in the biking world.
As Bill O'Reilly would say, "What say you"?
I'm not really looking for info to help me per se. Rather, I'd like to read about your journey to find the position that you found works best for you. For me, I got fit similar to the road bike (read KOPS knee extension). Have read too many articles about angles. Made endless adjustments and "runs" to see if anything drastic happened. Measured, plumbed, mirrored all to find the more I inquire the more confused I get. I'm left thinking TT fit with no controls has got to be the most hopeless attempt at gaining speed in the biking world.
As Bill O'Reilly would say, "What say you"?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lexington KY
Posts: 874
Bikes: 1970s or 80s concord pacer, 2007 dawes roadbike, 2005 raleigh supercourse
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
changes in cycling are never drastic, they all take a loooong time to notice.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orange Park, FL
Posts: 1,341
Bikes: Ever changing..as of 2-24-09: 2003 Giant TCR Team Once, Sampson titanium, 1992 Paramount Series 3, 2003 Cervelo P3, 70s Raleigh Record fixed gear, 70s Fuji SL-12 commuter, mid 90s Klein MTB. Plus two or three frames lurking, plus 5 wife/kids rides
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I've done much the same as you, although I didn't start off with any KOPS errr, BS. I have altered my TT bike position based on the basic principle that, barring wind tunnel time to prove otherwise, lower is more aero, level arms are better than angled down arms, and the further forward I can get, within reason, the more open my hip angle will be and the more power I can produce.
I've basically gotten lower with each successive change, and undergone some pain adapting to each position, and gotten faster each time as well. I've also tried various fore and aft arm pad positions. I initially tried to get the 90 degree arm angles favored by Dan Empfield's FIST articles, but found that when I did this, my knees hit my elbows. Suckage. I'm back to a bit more stretched out arm position.
One more thing I've read is that keeping the elbow width in line with the knees is good. When I tried this with a shorter cockpit, it constricted my breathing too much; now that I'm a bit more stretched out, it seems to work.
I think having the powermeter on the TT rig has helped, and if I were more organized and did geek tricks like coast down tests, it'd be even more helpful. I'm just too lazy.
I've basically gotten lower with each successive change, and undergone some pain adapting to each position, and gotten faster each time as well. I've also tried various fore and aft arm pad positions. I initially tried to get the 90 degree arm angles favored by Dan Empfield's FIST articles, but found that when I did this, my knees hit my elbows. Suckage. I'm back to a bit more stretched out arm position.
One more thing I've read is that keeping the elbow width in line with the knees is good. When I tried this with a shorter cockpit, it constricted my breathing too much; now that I'm a bit more stretched out, it seems to work.
I think having the powermeter on the TT rig has helped, and if I were more organized and did geek tricks like coast down tests, it'd be even more helpful. I'm just too lazy.
#4
Senior Member?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,977
Bikes: orbea onix, Cervelo SLC, Specialzed Allez, Cervelo P3 Alu
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
if it were easy you wouldnt be reading about all the pros spending time in wind tunnels.
#6
Peloton Shelter Dog
#7
My idea of fun
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 9,920
Bikes: '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked 59 Times
in
36 Posts
I noticed my best gains when I started pumping a unit of blood into my left arm at breakfast.
(tongue in cheek for the humor impaired)
(tongue in cheek for the humor impaired)
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Az
Posts: 330
Bikes: Scott cr1. Scott Plasma.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That I spent money on a tt bike I thought it natural to devote some time trying to figure out the best position that allows me to be "aero" while still producing some power (which I have no way to measure). I thought it was almost comical how many times I stopped and moved something, rode for a while, try to hold HR steady and check speed at given points. It also struck me how f'ing crazy this aspect of the sport can be. Here I've spent some cash on this machine designed to help minimize drag and no way to really measure, in terms of faster or slower, the changes I make.
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Az
Posts: 330
Bikes: Scott cr1. Scott Plasma.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I actually thought of some of your tt position threads a while back while writing the op. Initially, I thought they were a little crazy, but now that I know a little more, I was wrong. So, in a small way, it is about you!
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Az
Posts: 330
Bikes: Scott cr1. Scott Plasma.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#14
abandoning
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
for fun:
get a treadmill and a really big fan.
attach a sping to your bike that has a good amount of stretch (the weaker the spring, the more visible the differences in resistance will appear.)
coast your bike on the treadmill at one speed(keep leg position and treadmill speed the same throughout each test) and turn the fan on. the stronger the fan, the better the reading because the resistance will be more due to aero factors than rolling resistance --> easier to see changes.
measure the stretch in the spring, attaching it at the same point on the bike each time.
if this works, i will be amazed.
get a treadmill and a really big fan.
attach a sping to your bike that has a good amount of stretch (the weaker the spring, the more visible the differences in resistance will appear.)
coast your bike on the treadmill at one speed(keep leg position and treadmill speed the same throughout each test) and turn the fan on. the stronger the fan, the better the reading because the resistance will be more due to aero factors than rolling resistance --> easier to see changes.
measure the stretch in the spring, attaching it at the same point on the bike each time.
if this works, i will be amazed.
#15
as I used to be
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 653
Bikes: 2006 Lemond Tourmalet triple
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
for fun:
get a treadmill and a really big fan.
attach a sping to your bike that has a good amount of stretch (the weaker the spring, the more visible the differences in resistance will appear.)
coast your bike on the treadmill at one speed(keep leg position and treadmill speed the same throughout each test) and turn the fan on. the stronger the fan, the better the reading because the resistance will be more due to aero factors than rolling resistance --> easier to see changes.
measure the stretch in the spring, attaching it at the same point on the bike each time.
if this works, i will be amazed.
get a treadmill and a really big fan.
attach a sping to your bike that has a good amount of stretch (the weaker the spring, the more visible the differences in resistance will appear.)
coast your bike on the treadmill at one speed(keep leg position and treadmill speed the same throughout each test) and turn the fan on. the stronger the fan, the better the reading because the resistance will be more due to aero factors than rolling resistance --> easier to see changes.
measure the stretch in the spring, attaching it at the same point on the bike each time.
if this works, i will be amazed.
#16
Making a kilometer blurry
I have altered my TT bike position based on the basic principle that, barring wind tunnel time to prove otherwise, lower is more aero, level arms are better than angled down arms, and the further forward I can get, within reason, the more open my hip angle will be and the more power I can produce.
Once I got going with what looked like a good position, I realized that to finish it off, I was going to need more flexibility. This lead to my first real efforts at stretching in my life, and I can now get my head to my straightened knees -- and the aggressive TT position is really really comfy.
#17
Not above sucking wheel
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 65
Bikes: Bianchi Reporto Ti, Giant TCR-0, Bianchi Grizzly Reporto Mt. Bike, Old school fix gear bike for my "piano" days.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Same here. Using these principals, I got a lot more comfortable and faster this year. I posted a couple pics for nods on this forum, then I posted a video when I thought I had it completely dialed in. The only thing I've changed since then is lowering my shoulders again, when I realized I could remove the pedestals under my elbow pads and get another 2cm.
Once I got going with what looked like a good position, I realized that to finish it off, I was going to need more flexibility. This lead to my first real efforts at stretching in my life, and I can now get my head to my straightened knees -- and the aggressive TT position is really really comfy.
Once I got going with what looked like a good position, I realized that to finish it off, I was going to need more flexibility. This lead to my first real efforts at stretching in my life, and I can now get my head to my straightened knees -- and the aggressive TT position is really really comfy.
#18
3 seconds
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chicago, NW burbs
Posts: 2,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Although a wind tunnel is the prefered choice, you do have another option.
Put your bike on the roof of your car, climb on, and have someong drive around and refine your position. At 40-50 mph you will get a darn good feel for all your gear and positional changes and the resulting aero effects.
Just a suggestion.
Put your bike on the roof of your car, climb on, and have someong drive around and refine your position. At 40-50 mph you will get a darn good feel for all your gear and positional changes and the resulting aero effects.
Just a suggestion.
#19
Isaias
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 5,182
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Az
Posts: 330
Bikes: Scott cr1. Scott Plasma.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Although a wind tunnel is the prefered choice, you do have another option.
Put your bike on the roof of your car, climb on, and have someong drive around and refine your position. At 40-50 mph you will get a darn good feel for all your gear and positional changes and the resulting aero effects.
Just a suggestion.
Put your bike on the roof of your car, climb on, and have someong drive around and refine your position. At 40-50 mph you will get a darn good feel for all your gear and positional changes and the resulting aero effects.
Just a suggestion.
A bike however, would be awesome matterial for the Darwin awards.
#21
3 seconds
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chicago, NW burbs
Posts: 2,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Used to be an alpine ski racer. My first coach was a former USST downhiller. He said he's done that wearing the full downhill suit, skis, poles, helmet and goggles. Given the 2x4's those guys used back in the 70's for the Hannenkam I'm not really surprised though.
A bike however, would be awesome matterial for the Darwin awards.
A bike however, would be awesome matterial for the Darwin awards.
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Az
Posts: 330
Bikes: Scott cr1. Scott Plasma.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Within ... LOL. We used to do this when I was ski jumping. We made a frame where we could hang the skier in, skis and all, and would fly down the road at 60-70 mph in order to work on our air flight. It works, but I really hoped we wouldn't hit anyone. We normally did it late at night, and no, drinking was not involved.
#23
3 seconds
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chicago, NW burbs
Posts: 2,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Within, Done the hills at Steamboat but with the proper gear. You're crazy to do it on downhill stuff. Please tell me you left your poles behind. I haven't done the ski flying hill (Copper Peak) at Ironwood, MI but my brother has ... way cool but I decided to pass on that one. And yes ... it's intimidating as hell from the top. Did you see it when snowed? Then it's really intimidating, Now nearby, Iron Mountain, MI is still way fun. I've also done a little ski racing but nothing serious. Spent too much time ski jumping in my prime (if I ever really had one) ;(.
Finally, ski jumping is way less hairy than downhill. When you ski jump properly, it's almost an out of body experience and balletic. In downhill, the winner is usually 99% out of control, nearly dies 3 or 4 times down, and has an out of mind experience.
Finally, ski jumping is way less hairy than downhill. When you ski jump properly, it's almost an out of body experience and balletic. In downhill, the winner is usually 99% out of control, nearly dies 3 or 4 times down, and has an out of mind experience.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal Baby
Posts: 2,137
Bikes: o5 Specilized roubaix Comp, 06 Tequilo
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Last month at Piru TT conditions were light so a friend lent me her deep sections because she was running her disk and 4 spoke. So awsome ,light day, aero wheels ,felt really good, had new aero position I was very comfortable training in, everything in place for a personal best.
Test road the weels a little before registration everything is working great. Register , change wheels and warm up. 10 minutes before start put on race wheels. Forgot my headband, no big deal. Feel very good, relaxed, ready. Roll up and take off.
Feel really great, quickly up to speed finding my rhythym. First hill ,start to lose cadence and shift. Jumpy cassette, won't stay in prefered gear. So over cranking a bit no big, hammer. Down hill, shift ,crap ,won't stay in gear. Ok under cranking a bit, no big, hammer. Check my data. No data computer acting weird. HRM works. Starting to sweat pretty good, running down my face. Starting to run on my glasses. Go into shade. Glasses fog up. Can't see s**t. Okay think that's the turn around.
So I can't use the gears I need, I've got no data, have no idea what my split was, I can't see,and only six miles to go. Awsome. I'm fighting the bike all the way back. I have no rhythym . I have no confidence laying the power on. I'm cussing, sweating, pissed,ok finish this thing. Thank you that's over. What a f*****g mess. Oh well. Hang out for results , check the sheet. MY Best Time Ever!! Can't wait til next month.
Test road the weels a little before registration everything is working great. Register , change wheels and warm up. 10 minutes before start put on race wheels. Forgot my headband, no big deal. Feel very good, relaxed, ready. Roll up and take off.
Feel really great, quickly up to speed finding my rhythym. First hill ,start to lose cadence and shift. Jumpy cassette, won't stay in prefered gear. So over cranking a bit no big, hammer. Down hill, shift ,crap ,won't stay in gear. Ok under cranking a bit, no big, hammer. Check my data. No data computer acting weird. HRM works. Starting to sweat pretty good, running down my face. Starting to run on my glasses. Go into shade. Glasses fog up. Can't see s**t. Okay think that's the turn around.
So I can't use the gears I need, I've got no data, have no idea what my split was, I can't see,and only six miles to go. Awsome. I'm fighting the bike all the way back. I have no rhythym . I have no confidence laying the power on. I'm cussing, sweating, pissed,ok finish this thing. Thank you that's over. What a f*****g mess. Oh well. Hang out for results , check the sheet. MY Best Time Ever!! Can't wait til next month.
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: On the intramaweb thing.
Posts: 1,016
Bikes: Steel geared. Steel Fix.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Last month at Piru TT conditions were light so a friend lent me her deep sections because she was running her disk and 4 spoke. So awsome ,light day, aero wheels ,felt really good, had new aero position I was very comfortable training in, everything in place for a personal best.
Test road the weels a little before registration everything is working great. Register , change wheels and warm up. 10 minutes before start put on race wheels. Forgot my headband, no big deal. Feel very good, relaxed, ready. Roll up and take off.
Feel really great, quickly up to speed finding my rhythym. First hill ,start to lose cadence and shift. Jumpy cassette, won't stay in prefered gear. So over cranking a bit no big, hammer. Down hill, shift ,crap ,won't stay in gear. Ok under cranking a bit, no big, hammer. Check my data. No data computer acting weird. HRM works. Starting to sweat pretty good, running down my face. Starting to run on my glasses. Go into shade. Glasses fog up. Can't see s**t. Okay think that's the turn around.
So I can't use the gears I need, I've got no data, have no idea what my split was, I can't see,and only six miles to go. Awsome. I'm fighting the bike all the way back. I have no rhythym . I have no confidence laying the power on. I'm cussing, sweating, pissed,ok finish this thing. Thank you that's over. What a f*****g mess. Oh well. Hang out for results , check the sheet. MY Best Time Ever!! Can't wait til next month.
Test road the weels a little before registration everything is working great. Register , change wheels and warm up. 10 minutes before start put on race wheels. Forgot my headband, no big deal. Feel very good, relaxed, ready. Roll up and take off.
Feel really great, quickly up to speed finding my rhythym. First hill ,start to lose cadence and shift. Jumpy cassette, won't stay in prefered gear. So over cranking a bit no big, hammer. Down hill, shift ,crap ,won't stay in gear. Ok under cranking a bit, no big, hammer. Check my data. No data computer acting weird. HRM works. Starting to sweat pretty good, running down my face. Starting to run on my glasses. Go into shade. Glasses fog up. Can't see s**t. Okay think that's the turn around.
So I can't use the gears I need, I've got no data, have no idea what my split was, I can't see,and only six miles to go. Awsome. I'm fighting the bike all the way back. I have no rhythym . I have no confidence laying the power on. I'm cussing, sweating, pissed,ok finish this thing. Thank you that's over. What a f*****g mess. Oh well. Hang out for results , check the sheet. MY Best Time Ever!! Can't wait til next month.
I too find this. I have a regular run that I do. On days I feel great I'll do a mediocre time. This morning, for no apparent reason I posted a PB. Go figure