"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

TT Position question

Old 04-06-08, 02:20 PM
  #1  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
TT Position question

I did notice in yesterday's TT that some of the faster guys were holding that aero tuck going into
the headwind, but that did not work for me. I was on my aero bars, but elbows lifted, as if I was climbing an upgrade, because I can't put out the same wattage in full aero position. So that's a problem, I was wondering what I can do? I'm convinced the lack of aero added 30+ seconds to my time Sunday. For the wattage I put down I think I should have gone faster, and not being tucked into a wicked headwind isn't good.

I'm going to set the TT bike up on the trainer and start looking at the wattages I crank, then altering
the position. I was thinking move my seat forward and tilt the nose down a bit? Could be time for a TT fit, but I'm not sure I trust any of the local TT fit places anymore than I trust myself and the feedback I get here.
I can get aero, I can put down my FTP of 275 watts, but to put down 300+ I start getting un-aero, so it's back to the TT bike position drawing board. I'm sure this is how everyone eventually gets more aero on their TT bike. You have to race, re-evaluate, make changes, race some more.

Yesterday's race might have been somewhat of an aberration, typically I'm in that elbows-not-dropped position on my TT bike when I'm climbing @ 15-19mph when aero position isn't so critical. Much more critical when you're trying to go 20mph+ in to a stiff breeze. That latter circumstance is not uncommon in TTs of course, and you do want to be able to hold the tuck and hammer as hard as you can...
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-06-08, 02:26 PM
  #2  
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,130

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Work on hamstring stretches and building some core strength. Get to where you can get both fists on the ground with feet together and straight knees. It helped me a bunch. Not only did I used to be weak in the aero position, but my legs would actually fall asleep. Now I'm comfortable, same power as road position, and was even able to lower my bars by 3.5cm.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 04-06-08, 02:41 PM
  #3  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Work on hamstring stretches and building some core strength. Get to where you can get both fists on the ground with feet together and straight knees. It helped me a bunch. Not only did I used to be weak in the aero position, but my legs would actually fall asleep. Now I'm comfortable, same power as road position, and was even able to lower my bars by 3.5cm.
Oh well. I doubt that will ever happen. I do 4-5 TTs a year. I hate stretching but I do have pretty good core strength now. I love TTs, but not as much as I hate to stretch. I do it for my back already, so I'm not as un-limber as you would think.

I was hoping a change in position on the bike might help, but you're probably 100% correct.
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 05:16 AM
  #4  
markfosterTT
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sounds like you need a proper adjustment. Ask around at the next TT where people go to get a good fit. Find someone who not only has the experience and education in fitting, but also TTs. I think experienced racers are the best fitters.
Even if you only do 4-5 TTs a year, you may really improve your times just by being comfortable.

I also agree with having a strong core. That helps out a lot.
markfosterTT is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 05:19 AM
  #5  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
I think Dr. W. should come to my house, fit me on my TT bike, give me a chiro adjustment and sign an autograph for me for free.
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 05:32 AM
  #6  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,331

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 867 Post(s)
+! on the stretching. Beyond that I think its a matter of spending time training on the TT bike.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 05:39 AM
  #7  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
+! on the stretching. Beyond that I think its a matter of spending time training on the TT bike.
Perhaps. I'm convinced there's something wrong with my position. I'll be working on it.
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 06:16 AM
  #8  
pseudobrit
1.9lb/in
 
pseudobrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Susquehanna shoreline
Posts: 1,360

Bikes: LeMond, CAAD9/1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I did notice in yesterday's TT that some of the faster guys were holding that aero tuck going into
the headwind, but that did not work for me. I was on my aero bars, but elbows lifted, as if I was climbing an upgrade, because I can't put out the same wattage in full aero position. So that's a problem, I was wondering what I can do? I'm convinced the lack of aero added 30+ seconds to my time Sunday. For the wattage I put down I think I should have gone faster, and not being tucked into a wicked headwind isn't good.
What if you just put out less power when you start to lift? It doesn't do any good to crank 300 and lose 30 when your tuck comes undone, right?

I'm going to set the TT bike up on the trainer and start looking at the wattages I crank, then altering
the position. I was thinking move my seat forward and tilt the nose down a bit?
This is the first thing I thought of. If you're pulling back it means you're stretching. A more nose-down position might keep your center of gravity tipped more firmly into those bars.
pseudobrit is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 06:42 AM
  #9  
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,130

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Note that the stretching has allowed me to get lower and more comfortable in the road/drops position. There's no losing with stretching. Just work on it every day for a week (5-10 minutes, right after a ride when the muscles are supple), then twice/week after that. I'll bet you'll make huge improvements.

When you're posting here for recommendations, post video. I got much better feedback that way. (that video is out of date -- I'm a lot lower now)
waterrockets is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 07:22 AM
  #10  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
Originally Posted by pseudobrit View Post
What if you just put out less power when you start to lift? It doesn't do any good to crank 300 and lose 30 when your tuck comes undone, right?



This is the first thing I thought of. If you're pulling back it means you're stretching. A more nose-down position might keep your center of gravity tipped more firmly into those bars.
Good points. It's all going into the mix. I'll be doing some sessions over the next couple of weeks on the trainer with a mirror and the PTap trying to figure this out. First I'll raise the saddle, raise the bars, move the saddle up and tip the nose down. Let's see how that works. A position that's 2cm higher but allows me to stay on my elbows will be far more aero than what I was doing yesterday. I'll work on the stretching too, that will also help my back.
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 07:30 AM
  #11  
Jynx
.....
 
Jynx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Long Island
Posts: 4,816

Bikes: 2006 Cannondale CAAD8

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
where are the obligatory patentcad photos?
Jynx is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 07:33 AM
  #12  
carlfreddy
Acquiring new target....
 
carlfreddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,276

Bikes: Trek XO-1, Gary Fisher Rig

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I hate stretching


pcad! Thats easily the most important part of the ride; stretching afterwards!

I usually don't stretch immediately following a ride like waterrockets, but I stretch and/or use the foam roller every single day!

Start stretching regularly and you'll see results.
carlfreddy is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 07:36 AM
  #13  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
I hate stretching. The more you tell me to do it the more I hate it. In fact now that you're harping on it I also hate you.

Don't feel bad, I hate everybody, it's racing season. See Universal Loathing.
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 07:39 AM
  #14  
wanders
going roundy round
 
wanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: High Point, NC
Posts: 6,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Get thee to a wind tunnel as done by the good doctor.
wanders is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 07:47 AM
  #15  
jfmckenna
Tiocfáidh ár Lá
 
jfmckenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The edge of b#
Posts: 5,445

Bikes: A whole bunch-a bikes.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 264 Post(s)
Getting aero is more important then loosing a few watts and in fact can actually gain you a few watts.

Have a look at this: http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?...letters03-04#4
jfmckenna is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 07:49 AM
  #16  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
A 'wind tunnel'? But wanders, Orange County NY is a wind tunnel.
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 08:45 AM
  #17  
MarkSch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Uxbridge, MA
Posts: 245

Bikes: Daniel Girard, Specialized Stumpjumper M2, Basso TT bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't have a power-meter and its been almost 20 years since I raced a TT, and then as part of triathlons...but I'm with jfmckenna on this one.

Don't be a slave to the power-meter!

One wins by covering the course in least amount of TIME not by expending the most POWER over that TIME.

I think most of us can generate the most power with our hands on the tops...like for climbing...but in the TT our key impediment is wind resistance...the more aero position may generate less power, but if it cheats the wind enough, the end result may be greater speed...and that's what you really care about.

so if you are going to do power meter testing, I'd focus on the position that gives you the greatest speed into a constant wind....the greater the headwind, the more important the aerodynamics will be....

I'm sure someone can provide exactly the equation that tells us how much more important, and can calculate off of your 275 watt output the number of watts you can sacrifice to have the aero position offer the best speed.
MarkSch is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 08:49 AM
  #18  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thread Starter
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
What's useful about a PM is you can dial up to 300-350 watts in any given position and then figure out what position on the bike makes that easier....
patentcad is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 09:58 AM
  #19  
DrWJODonnell
Slow'n'Aero
 
DrWJODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Driving the pace in the crosswind
Posts: 2,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Pcad, I don't know if this helps, but BEFORE my wind tunnel experience I did some calculations using analyticcycling.com and determining at what speed power trumps aero. For me, anything over about 15 mph I start taking aero losses. Anything over 22 I will not sacrifice aerodynamics for power. I believe that aerodynamics were MUCH more important in the Headwind and so while you would have sacrificed power, you should have stayed the TT position at all times. But, this is how we learn. Congrats on your time btw.
DrWJODonnell is offline  
Old 04-07-08, 10:06 AM
  #20  
MarkSch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Uxbridge, MA
Posts: 245

Bikes: Daniel Girard, Specialized Stumpjumper M2, Basso TT bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
What's useful about a PM is you can dial up to 300-350 watts in any given position and then figure out what position on the bike makes that easier....
But like DrWJO'D just said....you're more interested in how fast you go (which is likely more dependent on how aero you are) as opposed to what your power output is....you might be FASTER in a position that only allows you to generate 300 watts if you are more aero than a position that allows for 350.

(Don't) be the wind.
MarkSch is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.