carpediemracing 

Excellent. +1. It's how Mark McCormack won Philly one year. Everyone was significantly overlapped to the right (they were going around a fountain in a big traffic circle) so he and his leadout guy went left, went super hard. No one could respond immediately and by the time they did McCormack & Co were already on their way. He went from a long, long way out and won the race overall.

cdr

kniprm

ah. makes perfect sense now.

Voodoo76

Some training thoughts:

1. Jumps,53x17 5mph jump to 25 or so as quickly as you can. On the track 4 or 5 of these were part of our warmup routine. Really helps on the road too. Do em when rested and rest in between, youre not trying to train recovery here. Also teaches you better position and pull on the bars.
2. Flat Intervals Modified, Do em same speed but 1 gear lower (high rpm). Again make sure you get enough rest in between.
3. Motor Pace, find a riding buddy with a motor bike and a deserted road. Nothin like trying to come around a 40mph motor!
4. Weight Training, agree with training the upper body hard however I would suggest heavy weights for both Upper and Lower. This is a long process, not a quick fix.

Racing Thoughts. +10 to whoever mentioned knowing the right wheel to get on. You have the whole race to scout out who that is going to be, make the wrong choice and nothing else matters. When you start your sprint is sometimes a choice and sometimes dictated by the race (if you are on a good wheel it's a choice more often).

big chainring 

Thats the best response. All this other talk is BS. Sprinting is less thought, and more instinct and experience.

damocles1

Train for it all you want...
Do specific workouts...
Analyze wattage charts...
Figure out how to get leadouts...

That's all fine and well, but if you can't sprint, you can't sprint, period. You may get better, but there's always a natural sprinter around to beat you.

carpediemracing 

I agree with that statement.

However, there are many ways to beat a sprinter in a sprint. It just takes insane amounts of fitness though.

In Tour of Nutley (a twin to Tour of Somerville but Nutley hasn't been held for a while), Cat 3s, the odds on favorite was a multi time National crit and track champion (in masters competition), a guy who would win 20+ races a year, place second 20+ time, etc, be forcibly upgrade annually, then request a down grade due to "a change training time available" (backed up by all these DNFs in Cat 2 races into May). Once a 3, he'd repeat the process, sometimes winning 5 or 6 races a weekend - he told one of his friends that $1500 was a normal weekend for him. Anyway he has the most insane jump, I've never seen anything like it, and he can win or place P123 crits. He led me out once, jumped away from me, and could alternately coast and soft pedal the last 150 meters to the line because he was so far ahead of me (I got pipped at the line for 3rd).

He was at Nutley and it just seemed hopeless to try and beat him. I ended up getting shelled, didn't have it that day, and watched the finish. A guy from CT, a definite non-sprinter, was still in there, working, we thought, for his sprinter teammate. But then the sprinter teammate kind of petered out too, so he was on his own. He tried to get away a bunch of times but couldn't escape the field. It'd come down to a sprint for him (I think a small break was way up the road).

On the last lap I watched from about 150-200m to go, trying to get an idea of from where the winners go. Here comes the non sprinter, leading out the sprint, game on, full speed, blazing out of the last turn. The ultimate sandbagger guy is on his wheel. I turned away, didn't even want to look, it was like gifting the race to the sandbagger guy. Then all my friends started screaming louder and louder for our non-sprinter friend. I look back, the sandbagger dude has no jump left at 40+ mph, he can only pull even with our tall, lanky TT boy. Over and over he tries to get by him but he can't, and apparently, at the line, our TT boy beat the ultimate sandbagger and won the field sprint.

Sprinters are by definition weak. That's why they generally don't win, say, Grand Tours. When Saronni won the Giro, he won it based on something like 4 or 5 minutes of time bonuses from sprints (he won by about 2.5 minutes total). But normally, when the racing gets hard, the sprinters go flying off the back. Fast twitch muscles don't have endurance. Let them stay with you to the line and a sprinter will be an odds on bet. Make the race hard and even in a field sprint a sprinter may not be able to do it.

cdr

ridethecliche

So you're saying that your friend beat the sandbagger by dialing it up a notch and keeping it there to wear out the sprinter before he could jump? And by the time where he *should* have jumped, the sprinters legs were already worn from the hard effort of keeping up with your friend?

Word...

That's awesome!

Voodoo76

Agree to a point. The problem lies with all the poorly or not coached riders out there. My own experience, I went from a rider type cast as a non-sprinter. Never really trained it, never tried to set it up in a race, and had piss poor results. Started working with a new coach who beleived I could develop speed and turned into a pretty good road sprinter. Matter of fact I got down to 11's on the Track in my 30's.

Sprinting takes natural talent, yes. But if you don't give that talent a shot it may not show itself.

CrimsonKarter21

I don't know if it's been said yet, but messing around with your positioning can make as big a difference as power does.
For instance;
Where are your hands when you sprint? hoods? hooks? on the flat?
Do you feel scrunched up? Laid back?
Do you throw the bike from side to side? Do you throw the bike at the finish? Can you throw your bike at the finish?
Do you shift while sprinting?
Do you sprint with your legs moving straight up and down like you do when you're seated, or do you bow them from the hips a little bit?
Are your elbows even with your hands?
Where are you looking?
How deeply are you breathing, and is it harder to breathe because of your positioning?
Are you still pedaling in circles?

gsteinb

and today it didn't happen

carpediemracing 

I respectfully disagree, although it seems like that at times. I wrote something about the chaos in my head in the final sprint. It went on cyclingnews but it ended up elsewhere:
https://www.aboc.com.au/tips-and-hint...o-on-sprinting
I wrote the above from the point of view of the zen-master-of-sprinting where technicalities don't make an appearance.

But in pretty much all races I've done well in I've had an idea of how I wanted to approach the sprint, where I'd jump, even which side I'd go on. Details like gearing take care of themselves, except when I end up running out of gears (not a problem at this point). I think it's important to have a basic plan. After that you can deviate from it, based on what happens around you.

Talking with guys that beat me or get beaten by me (I don't beat them as much), they analyze their sprints just as carefully as I do. They realize when they should have done this or that, when they should have gone left or right, even the choices of wheel they made before the race started. One guy asked me about my new wheels one year - he asked what happened to my "regular" ones. I said the new wheels get me 20 feet in the sprint. He looked at me with total understanding. "Most guys wouldn't think of that", he said, "but you and I know that these things make a difference." He killed me in a couple sprints including the one on that day but I beat him in a critical one by a couple inches.

I like Crimson's list btw. Good checklist.

cdr

Idioteque

i like this a lot, give answers for each point : )
or should this job be left to CDR?

CrimsonKarter21

You mean for me to give an explanation for why I'm asking? Everybody's positioning is different. Some people do better when they throw their bike side to side, and some do better when they stiffen up their movements and view the throwing as sloppy and power-robbing, for example. I'm saying that the OP should think about each of those quesitons and take each one into account. Changing a few of those things could mean a mile or two per hour faster.

Idioteque

nay i meant on what each point should be like, but i see what youre saying, again all very good points

CrimsonKarter21

No, my view is that everyone has a different position. Changing just one of those postion notes could mean faster or slower for you.

ridethecliche

This is where power meters come in handy.

You can pick one day and do sprint repeats with rests in between and see what your speed/power output is depending on what you do to see how you sprint most efficiently.

It's aero vs. power at times like that, but it can make the difference to know, empirically, what works best for you. Throw feel out the window. As long as you can control your bike for the short time you sprint, it doesn't matter how crummy you feel as long as you're going the fastest you could be going.

lightbulb

My hands were in the drops. Even though we were sprinting up a slight hill, I figured that this would give me the most power for this sprint.

I felt like I was midway over the bars. On my other bike, which is an older steel panasonic that's too small for me, on sprints I felt like I would lean way over the front of the bars, almost to the point of falling forward. On this bike, I don't feel like I'm so far forward, but it probably has to do with the shorter stem (100 vs 120mm)

Yes, I throw the bike from side to side, but I need to work on that more. Last year I was comfortable with it, but this year I feel a little more out of control, which isn't good.


Yes, but I don't think that I shift while at 100% load. I think that subconsciously I let up just a little bit, just because that's what I'm used to doing.

I'm not exactly sure what this means, but I don't think my legs are going straight up and down. I think this might have something to do with me throwing my bike from side to side though.

I'm not sure, I'll have to get someone to take a picture/video of me while I'm doing it.

I was looking up the road at the guy who was beating me

Breathing about as hard as I can

No, at this point the pedal strokes are more up and down

CrimsonKarter21

Okay, were you in the bend or on the flats? Change it up a bit, see which works best. Also try pulling up on the bars.

Again, try changing the positioning up. It's all about what angle you're placing your legs at. I've seen some people hovering above the saddle in a sprint and others kind of "kick" the pedals while hovering in front of the saddle.



Get comfortable. Just about every race you'll be in will end in a group sprint.




Modern bikes are made to handle the pressure.


Sorry I explained it so ugly. I meant, do you bow your knees out from you? I know that in my normal pedal stroke (sitting) my knees come close to hitting the top tube, but when I sprint, Ibend my knees the other way, I feel that it relaxes the muscles a bit more, but still allowing for full power sprints.


It's not hard to figure out. Instead of wasting a riding day on distance riding, spend an hour or so on sprinting practice.


Okay, good.


Even though you're gasping for air, you should be thinking of how you're breathing.



Practice the circular pedal stroke in sprinting.

---------------
I'm not claiming to be an amazing sprinter, but this is what I know. Like I said, devoteat least two days a month just to sprint training, again, just a half-hour can make a huge difference. It sounds to me like you're looking at the whole machine of sprinting instead of the little components that go into it like breathing techniques, pedaling motion and possible minor positioning flaws.

bikeM3987

FWIW, I have heard from nearly everyone not to shift while in a full out sprint. The one time I did it, I threw my chain on the frame and nearly went down. The bike was in fine mechanical condition with the exception of a weak derailleur hanger. The shop had tuned the bike the day before the race, and when I took it to them after the race to replace the hanger, they said they believed it was bent from the force of the shift. I have not shifted in a sprint since then. My coach just says you need to get comfortable with a higher cadence when sprinting.

carpediemracing 

A drill for working on increasing pedal cadence is good for a drill, but to sprint as fast as possible you need to maintain a more consistent rpm. It seems like the number of pedal strokes (and force on each one) decides the limit to which you can sprint.

Keep in mind that you shift pretty much only as you accelerate. Once you hit top speed you're not going to shift (unless the terrain changes significantly or something weird happens).

A very good example of cadence vs gear is a sprint a long time ago when Mark Whitehead (track star) and Davis Phinney (crit star) ended up head to head in a sprint in a relatively big crit. Whitehead was in a 53x15, a gear he felt was "right". Phinney was in a 53x12. Whitehead lost the sprint. Afterwards he admitted that the low gear sprints, although good for track, don't work as well on the road. He put it something like "I need to learn how to sprint in a bigger gear".

In a more personal story, there was a guy who was an ace sprinter (now the guy who sponsors CRCA/Sakonnet). He had an insane jump and a good top end. When I first sprinted with him (and 100-150 of our closest friends at the SUNY Purchase sprints), I had a marginal chance at beating him. I could jump in a lower gear, like a 14, and out accelerate (jump) him infrequently. Then I could shift into higher gears and maintain my speed, so I'd be holding 46 mph in a 54x12 (late 80s to mid 90s). I was using bar end shifters, he had downtube (STI had not been invented and Ergo was a fantasy), so I could shift and he couldn't. I probably got him 1/5 of the time, all based on my shifting. Then STI came out and he bought it. I went from being able to out jump him sometimes to never. I think I only beat him if he wasn't trying hard, i.e. he went super early or he experimented with shifting etc. This is because he could shift while sprinting, the only advantage I had over him before but which was now gone.

Shifting into a smaller cog uses very little force because the derailleur spring is what moves the shifter, not your much stronger hand. Yes the chain might drop hard but chains were strengthened for index shifting and ramps for the upshifts to bigger cogs, not the downshifts to smaller cogs. I was making 100% shifts into smaller cogs with chains which would fail when shifting under pressure on "new fangled" cassettes with ramps (i.e. every single cassette made nowadays). If you had a bent hanger on your bike, it was caused by something else, not shifting under pressure, else I'd be going through hangers all the time. I buy extra hangers just in case but I still have a few for my Giants, my M2 frame, even my older Cannondales. I bend hangers when I crash, not when I shift.

It's true that over gearing is not good and it's a common error. But shifting while sprinting is a good thing to be able to do when you're dealing with "normal" category racing, i.e. Cat 3-5. Racers are generally too weak to maintain killer speeds for more than a mile or two and that plays perfectly into the hands of a racer with a good jump. At a Cat 2 level, sprints tend to start pretty fast anyway and you might get only one shift in. Above that I couldn't tell you since I haven't been in any, but it seems like they're jumping in the 12 or 11. If you go 35-38 mph for a while (5-10-15 minutes) before sprinting, the jump is almost unimportant. I know I have nothing left in situations like that and so I can't even jump.

cdr

carpediemracing 

Regarding sprint "practice", one thing I think would help is slo-mo sprints. Do extremely slow cadence sprints where you pretend you're sprinting in slo-mo. You can experiment with how much to pull up, push down, etc., all while turning a 53x12 at 10-20 rpm.

Where are your hands when you sprint? hoods? hooks? on the flat?
Do you feel scrunched up? Laid back?
Do you throw the bike from side to side? Do you throw the bike at the finish? Can you throw your bike at the finish?
Do you shift while sprinting?
Do you sprint with your legs moving straight up and down like you do when you're seated, or do you bow them from the hips a little bit?
Are your elbows even with your hands?
Where are you looking?
How deeply are you breathing, and is it harder to breathe because of your positioning?
Are you still pedaling in circles?

FWIW:
I hold the drops so high up that the crotch of my thumb is up against the lever. I never sprint anywhere else.
I can only go fast out of the saddle and therefore rock the bike. I throw the bike even when I think I might be clear because sometimes when I think I'm clear I'm not.
I shift virtually every time I stand up out of the saddle to launch my sprint.
I focus on the line once that's what's in front of me. Until then I'm looking around for gaps and usually soft pedaling a big gear.
I lean over so far that my rear wheel sometimes moves around, esp with longer stays.
I have no idea what I do with my breathing once I go, but I breath as deep/hard as I can before I go.
I tend to sprint at lower cadences (120 or so max, more like 110-115 on flats, maybe 80-90? on hills).
I pedal up/down but there seems to be a natural "kick over" motion at the top of the pedal stroke. Stronger I feel the more there is an "up" motion. Never circles.
Narrow bars help me rock faster.
Until I get past 95% effort, I hold a pretty straight line. At 100% my torso moves a bit from side to side. Bike ALWAYS moves side to side a bit - tires maybe 4-6", bars rocking, but my body is going in a relatively straight line.

I know I'm going good when I have a fast rocking rhythm in a big gear, my arms, chest, abs, back, and legs all working hard. My signs of getting better:
1. First I'm always over geared.
2. The first sprint where I don't over gear I'm usually a bit under geared, 14 or 13T, but I feel "fast".
3. Then I work on needing one tooth smaller cog, i.e. 13 or 12.
4. A good sign is extremely sore abs after doing 10+ sprints - that's maybe two steps (2-3 months) before I max out my sprint speed. If I need my core that badly, the rest of me is going well.

lol I feel like this is a botto thing:

1. When you sprint the gear will feel too big.
2. Work on your sprint until the gear feels right.
3. Shift up a gear, go back to step 1.

That's what I do. I figure it takes 6-8 weeks of consistent sprint training (1-2 days a week) to increase a gear. I'd graduate to the 53x11 after 4-5 months of lots of work - 2-3 hours of sprints (1 ever 7-8 minutes) one night a week, plus maybe 5-10 random sprints during the rest of the week, including 1-2 scheduled/known sprints during group rides. I also lift somewhat aggressively. I haven't been there in 10 years though, right now I can't break 38 mph. Sucks.

btw that means that back in the day I was at the top of my sprint game in August. yep. Right when racing is winding down.

cdr

bikeM3987

Maybe I should try your style again, i.e. go to what felt natural to me the first time.

I used to jump from a bigger gear because I could handle it, and I would typically max out the gear I left in (slow launches in Cat 5's.) I tried not to shift much in the sprint, but I would occasionally. Now I never do it as I already said, but I am willing to try again. I push a pretty low gear when riding in the pack at a higher cadence, but when I sprint I like to keep a pretty low cadence. I feel like I can generate much more torque on the bike while rocking it more (when my cadence rises, my rocking decreases). I think I need to go back to that and ignore this take off in a low gear bs. I guess this is what happens when you are so new to cycling.

edit: one thing that did help me though was trying to hit 35mph in the 53/15. It may sound easy to some, but for me this was hard at first because of my preferred lower cadence. I can do it now, but the fast cadence feels a bit off.

carpediemracing 

I think natural is key. One guy pestered me to "teach him how to sprint". My rocking style simply didn't work with his build and pedaling style. Ultimately he went back to his "old" way of sprinting - going 40 mph from way out and burning up everyone's jump. He'd literally ride me off his wheel so his lack of jump was a moot point. It wasn't as interesting to watch or execute but it was extremely effective.

I never "worked on" my sprint, it was just there. I made a few adjustments early on so I wouldn't lift my rear wheel off the ground, and later I made some adjustments so I didn't lift my front wheel off the ground (although I feel like an AMA racer when I do). I also worked on some Pavlov type hand position experiments (to get me psyched for a sprint). But my basic sprint never changed. Personally it looks a bit awkward but it works so that's that. As far as pros go I'm probably most similar to Abdujaporov, a guy severely criticized for moving his bike around a lot. McEwen is the closest of the current generation, but he's a bit more stable than I am in the sprint.

I really think alternating gear sprints are good, meaning you do a bunch of sprints alternating between, say, a 53x15 and a 53x13. At first the 15 seems too easy, but as you get fatigued, the 15 becomes really, really hard. This replicates the lactic acid build up in a race and does two things:
1. Illustrates how difficult it is to spin when fatigued.
2. Illustrate difference between higher and lower cadence in a sprint.
I've said this in other threads but when making an adjustment or experimenting with something like sprint cadence, use extreme numbers first, then narrow down to your "ideal". This applies to stem lengths, seat heights, crank lengths, and sprint cadence. So for sprints, try sprinting at 50 and 150 rpm. Then 70 and 130. Then 90 and 110. By then you'll know about what cadence at which you sprint best, and you can train accordingly. As a side benefit spinning high gears is good training by itself.

Also, thanks for not being all defensive or attacking my posts. I think my sprinting techniques are not for everyone (except the shifting bit, I truly think that everyone can use that), but they work for me, and I'm sure there are those out there that will correctly disagree with me.

cdr

bikeM3987

I will have to do the alternating some, seeing as how I haven't done sprint work in forever...

But more importantly, when you shift during the sprint, do you do it under full load or do you ease up a bit? Do you usually shift on the downstroke or the deadspots?

carpediemracing 

I shift on my "jump" downstroke, at about noon-1 o'clock, i.e. so the chain engages at the moment of peak power - maybe 2 o'clock or so. I definitely hear the chain slam into gear. I didn't realize this until someone pointed out I shifted as I jumped, then I distracted myself in a couple sprints to see what they were talking about.

Mid sprint shifts, i.e. not jump but simply shifting up into bigger gears, I think I shift at that top position and my pedal stroke is not as smooth/fast, and I don't get that chain slam like when I jump.

I guess I'm more a diesel or big block than F1, I like low rpm and high torque when I jump. So I soft/medium pedal a slightly big gear until I need to go, then shift into a bigger gear as I jump.

cdr