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So, seriously, that's "legal"?

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So, seriously, that's "legal"?

Old 04-28-08, 04:06 PM
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eriksbliss
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So, seriously, that's "legal"?

From another thread . . .

"Shoving Cat4's out of the paceline to move in is another one of his tactics. Hand on the hip and push. Legal, sure . . ."

I'm just getting started in the criterium scene, so don't know all the details yet . . . but, really, you can physically force a guy out of a spot that you want (and I don't mean by keeping your hand on your bars and using aggressive navigation) -- just ride up next to him, actually push his body aside with your hand, and take the wheel he was on?

If so, I'm not going to last long with this racing thing. 'Cause I'm just a former offensive lineman with a borderline anger management problem. If somebody did that to me, there's a 50% chance that, when the race was over, I would find the guy and beat the **** out of him. And it's only a 50% chance because the other half of the time I wouldn't wait until the race is over, but rather take my spot back with a retaliatory "hand to his hip" that not only removed him from the paceline but had him eatking roadside shrubbery.
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Old 04-28-08, 04:17 PM
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To be honest, a lot of riders will get out of the way if you just put your hand on their hip and give them a nudge. It's not "shove", but you can certainly nudge them off the wheel pretty easily. I've never had to do it though I've seen it done in Japan when I raced there. The riders there are very aggressive, so if it's from the Pro riding the lower cat races, I wouldn't be surprised if he does.
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Old 04-28-08, 04:18 PM
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Don't confuse a hand on the hip with a shoving match. Further, don't worry about it in the lower cats.
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Old 04-28-08, 04:31 PM
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I've only been racing for a year, so take what I say with a grain of salt..

The most aggressive racers I've ever seen were in south florida. One pulled out a glock and pointed it at someone to get him to move.
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Old 04-28-08, 04:42 PM
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Don't worry about it happening in the states much.

I'm sure Asgelle or someone will chime in, but I'm pretty sure hands off the bars=fault.
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Old 04-28-08, 04:44 PM
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It's against the rules to push someone. Occassionally people will lean on you, either accidentally, or intentionally. It's not a problem if you stay loose and don't let it shake you up.

In my experience in the lower categories, most of the bumping is inadvertant, and not done for tactical advantage.

As a former offensive lineman, you must be a big guy, people will learn not to mess with you, particularly if you just let them know you won't yield to aggression.

One advantage of being big is that 135lb bike riders just bounce off if they try to muscle you for position.

Few times that it's happened to me, I just look at them, laugh, and ask them who they think is likely to go down between the 2 of us.
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Old 04-28-08, 05:13 PM
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First its gently pushing someone off their line. Pretty soon your shoving a pump into some poor townie's wheel. Where will the violence end?
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Old 04-28-08, 05:32 PM
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Rubbing's racing. Or in the 4/5's, its crashing. If you're racing you should learn how to bump bars and hips and elbows.
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Old 04-28-08, 05:47 PM
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there have been times in the cat 3s where I have leaned on a guy with my full weight in order to get a wheel in a sprint. To the point where we are almost locking bars its bike racing.

In the 1/2 field if you see someone coming on your inside through a corner who is going to take your line you move over on them and but your hip on their handlebars and they will back down. Usually putting your hand one someone and pushing them is looked upon as bad. Putting your bars in front of their bars and pushing them out with your hip is not only common but not really looked upon as *****holeish, they should have protected their wheel better.

In the cat 4s contact and pushing people out of a pace line isnt real common since they are not as comfortable on their bike.
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Old 04-28-08, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
I've only been racing for a year, so take what I say with a grain of salt..

The most aggressive racers I've ever seen were in south florida. One pulled out a glock and pointed it at someone to get him to move.
Are you sure that it wasn't in Wyoming??
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Old 04-28-08, 06:36 PM
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In a windy RR I did this past weekend I was blown off a wheel (40mph gusts) and when I attempted to move back in a guy came up and took it from me. He put his hand on my hip and nudged me a bit. I could have done one of two things: 1) continue to take the wheel, I was in position to do so as I was in front of him or 2) I could yield. I'm a 5. I did the stupid thing. I sucked wind and blew up a while later.

I saw him doing the same thing to another rider and I think he was using it more defensively as he was not "pushing." People were all over the damn road that day, anyway.
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Old 04-28-08, 07:04 PM
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i usually just give them a lil spank on the tush to let them know what i REALLY want. They move out and never let me draft behind them
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Old 04-28-08, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
I've only been racing for a year, so take what I say with a grain of salt..

The most aggressive racers I've ever seen were in south florida. One pulled out a glock and pointed it at someone to get him to move.
Note to self, pack heat in first race.
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Old 04-28-08, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
One advantage of being big is that 135lb bike riders just bounce off if they try to muscle you for position.
You're not helping my motivation to drop pounds!
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Old 04-28-08, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by eriksbliss View Post
If so, I'm not going to last long with this racing thing. 'Cause I'm just a former offensive lineman with a borderline anger management problem. If somebody did that to me, there's a 50% chance that, when the race was over, I would find the guy and beat the **** out of him. And it's only a 50% chance because the other half of the time I wouldn't wait until the race is over, but rather take my spot back with a retaliatory "hand to his hip" that not only removed him from the paceline but had him eatking roadside shrubbery.
you're definitely not going to last if this is seriously your attitude. you wont be missed either
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Old 04-28-08, 08:16 PM
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Keep in mind that taking your hand off your bars and touching someone else is illegal. Doesn't matter what you do, even a slight nudge is illegal and a suspendable/dq'able offense. This is why you see heads and shoulders nudging and tilting. McEwen, when he "head butts" someone, is not actually head butting anyone - he's simply trying to keep off the guy without violating the rules - taking his hand off his bar.

As a long time crit and "close quarters" racer, if you take your hands off your bars, you already made a mistake. It's almost never necessary and should not be an "optional" move (i.e. either I do blah blah or I nudge the guy). The best and most aggressive racers I've encountered would never think about taking a hand off their bars, it's simply not necessary. I don't even think of them as "good guys", I actually severely dislike some of them, but to my recollection, in 10-15 years of racing against these extremely good racers, they basically never take a hand off their bars. They frustrate me but they do it by being better bike handlers, not by taking shortcuts.

cdr
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Old 04-28-08, 08:18 PM
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Crazy 4's were pulling this shart a few weeks ago during a race.. Next one that touches my hip during a race will pull back a nub.
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Old 04-28-08, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lithuania View Post
you're definitely not going to last if this is seriously your attitude. you wont be missed either
Of course he is joking, no-one is that big of an as$.
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Old 04-28-08, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Keep in mind that taking your hand off your bars and touching someone else is illegal. Doesn't matter what you do, even a slight nudge is illegal and a suspendable/dq'able offense. This is why you see heads and shoulders nudging and tilting. McEwen, when he "head butts" someone, is not actually head butting anyone - he's simply trying to keep off the guy without violating the rules - taking his hand off his bar.

As a long time crit and "close quarters" racer, if you take your hands off your bars, you already made a mistake. It's almost never necessary and should not be an "optional" move (i.e. either I do blah blah or I nudge the guy). The best and most aggressive racers I've encountered would never think about taking a hand off their bars, it's simply not necessary. I don't even think of them as "good guys", I actually severely dislike some of them, but to my recollection, in 10-15 years of racing against these extremely good racers, they basically never take a hand off their bars. They frustrate me but they do it by being better bike handlers, not by taking shortcuts.

cdr

Tell that to Stewart O'Grady...
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Old 04-28-08, 09:26 PM
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at 230lbs im not too worried about being pushed around. ill be too busy trying to hang on to the back for it to matter though.
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Old 04-28-08, 09:27 PM
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Its illegal, but it happens. It happens most (at least in Australia) in road races where there is a strong crosswind and riders are trying to push into the working line so they can get some shelter. Grab em, push em out the way, get in the working line, hope the commasairres didnt see it, worry about the complaining later if they are still there.
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Old 04-28-08, 10:17 PM
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Sorry, but any big guy that thinks he can just lean into me (sub-140) and I'll just move is mistaken. You might be bigger, you might be stronger, you might be heavier, but odds are I'm meaner and wily-er.

My bars are lower than yours, my hips are lower than yours, and my elbows are lower than yours. If I get underneath you, which I can do at will, I own you, mind, body and soul. A simple upward movement from any of those body parts, and you're moving away from me.
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Old 04-28-08, 11:27 PM
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Sorry, but any big guy that thinks he can just lean into me (sub-140) and I'll just move is mistaken. You might be bigger, you might be stronger, you might be heavier, but odds are I'm meaner and wily-er.

My bars are lower than yours, my hips are lower than yours, and my elbows are lower than yours. If I get underneath you, which I can do at will, I own you, mind, body and soul. A simple upward movement from any of those body parts, and you're moving away from me.
Agreed. As a rider with high confidence (probably misplaced), low low position, and far too much weight, I can pretty much go where I want in a pack.

Of those three qualities balls are the most important, being lower is second, and extra weight/muscle is just a bonus.
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Old 04-29-08, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rog View Post
Tell that to Stewart O'Grady...
He can't beat me
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Old 04-29-08, 03:54 AM
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Just don't panic when you feel the jabbing in your bum cheek.

It's probably just an sti lever and a sublte way of saying I want that wheel your on. Trackies and ex bmxer's racing crits can make gaps appear anywhere.
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