"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

why 2x20?

Old 05-04-08, 06:14 PM
  #1  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
why 2x20?

2x20 minute FTP intervals seem pretty popular.

But if you're racing a TT at an hour or a road race at longer than that, shouldn't you be doing longer FTP intervals?

(we'll assume you're doing shorter, more intense intervals as well)
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-04-08, 06:16 PM
  #2  
substructure
RustyTainte
 
substructure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: 28012
Posts: 12,343

Bikes: zilch

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Try 3x20 @ 105% then
substructure is offline  
Old 05-04-08, 07:05 PM
  #3  
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,130

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
2x20s create stimulus leading to adaptation of FTP improvement. Just look at the zone 4 column in the Power Training Levels page.

It's about the amount of time spent in a given zone. 2x20s gives you 40 minutes in zone 4. If you do longer intervals at the same intensity, it may have too big of an impact on the rest of your training week. Technically, to do 60 minutes at FTP should require a taper, so training before the effort will not be stimulating any adaptation. After the effort, some recovery will be required, so you'll likely have a day off or at least really easy.

2x20s are somewhat invasive early in the season, so people seem to stick with SST (zone 3/4 mix), which can be repeated day after day. I recently saw my gains start to flatten out with SST, so I've been doing 2x20s (four 2x20 workouts in 10 days so far), and I'm adapting to the efforts. Hopefully I'll see some FTP bumps from it.

Does that help?
waterrockets is offline  
Old 05-04-08, 07:24 PM
  #4  
NomadVW 
部門ニ/自転車オタク
 
NomadVW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 3,173

Bikes: 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, 2012 Blue Norcross CX, 2016 Blue Axino SL, 2016 Scott Scale, Fixie, Fetish Cycles Road Bike (on the trainer)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
1x60's @ 100% are mentally a beat down. FTP is the "best case" scenario for what you can hold for an hour, but you're rarely likely to be fresh enough to handle it.

The point of training a system is to do just enough training to provide the desired adaptation while not leaving yourself so fatigued you can't meet the desired training objectives of the following day. For most of us mortals, a 40km TT/60 minute effort would net a rest day the following day. However, I can do 2x20's and still get a good workout in the next day usually.

I'm a fan of 3x20's one day followed by 2x20's the next. In fact, I start my re-build for my summer goals tomorrow with 3x20's on Mondays from now until July. For the next two weeks, I'll just do 3x20's on Mondays. After that, I'll switch to 3x20's @ 91% on Monday, 2x20's @ 95% on Tuesday for three weeks. Then I go to 2x20's on Monday @ 100% for 3 more weeks. Fun, fun, fun
__________________
Envision, Energize, Enable
NomadVW is offline  
Old 05-04-08, 08:28 PM
  #5  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by NomadVW View Post
The point of training a system is to do just enough training to provide the desired adaptation
+1
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 05-04-08, 10:19 PM
  #6  
Bnjmn
Senior Member
 
Bnjmn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
2x20s are somewhat invasive early in the season
What does this mean? Invasive how?

Here is my philosophy:
Level 2 and 3 are for wuss. Level 1 or 4-7, as little as needed of each to do its thing. My week consists of 4 days of Level 4-7 (intervals), three days of Level 1 (or 2 days and a day off). You are either stressing your body to raise your 20min (which dictates FTP and beyond)/5 min/1 min/30 sec power, are recovering, or are not "training."
I may bump up to 5 days of 4-7 now that I no longer seem to get sore and feel relatively fresh after the hard days, or else add more intervals if I am able to maintain output through the interval set.

See http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5521
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/defaul...56&status=true
Bnjmn is offline  
Old 05-04-08, 10:43 PM
  #7  
dmotoguy
Edificating
 
dmotoguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,452

Bikes: Spooky + Sachs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
zone2/3 is not "for wuss"
zone 1 is only good to recover slightly quicker than if you sat on your ass and does not help you at all, zone 2/3 is beneficial, I ride a couple longer rides a week trying to stay in them.

for ftp intervals I do 4x10, 3x15, and 2x20..
__________________
Cat 3 // Dylan M Howell
dmotoguy is offline  
Old 05-05-08, 02:40 AM
  #8  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,715
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by NomadVW View Post
The point of training a system is to do just enough training to provide the desired adaptation while not leaving yourself so fatigued you can't meet the desired training objectives of the following day
Dunno, I thought it was to cross the line first.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 05-05-08, 03:38 AM
  #9  
patentcad
Peloton Shelter Dog
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Posts: 90,393

Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1013 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Dunno, I thought it was to cross the line first.
Don't confuse them with the obvious Gary.
patentcad is offline  
Old 05-05-08, 06:42 AM
  #10  
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,130

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bnjmn View Post
What does this mean? Invasive how?
If you're in the early training cycles, you might cause too much multi-day fatigue with 2x20s. In other words, you might not be able to do enough intensity the next day.

Originally Posted by Bnjmn View Post
Here is my philosophy:
Level 2 and 3 are for wuss. Level 1 or 4-7, as little as needed of each to do its thing. My week consists of 4 days of Level 4-7 (intervals), three days of Level 1 (or 2 days and a day off). You are either stressing your body to raise your 20min (which dictates FTP and beyond)/5 min/1 min/30 sec power, are recovering, or are not "training."
I may bump up to 5 days of 4-7 now that I no longer seem to get sore and feel relatively fresh after the hard days, or else add more intervals if I am able to maintain output through the interval set.

See http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5521
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/defaul...56&status=true
I wouldn't discount level 3 too much. These are my improvements from focusing on SST (level 3/4) at the beginning of this season:
5s: 1469W --> 1570W
1m: 669W --> 801W
5m: 368W --> 459W
20m: 320W --> 358W

I don't have the schedule to spend much time in zone 2, but if I had more training time, I'd be filling it with zone 2 and 3, for endurance and aerobic fitness.

EDIT: note that in general, I agree that intervals are more important. I just want to make sure I have the fitness to manage the training load so I don't overcook it.

Last edited by waterrockets; 05-05-08 at 06:54 AM.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 05-05-08, 06:45 AM
  #11  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What does SST mean?
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-05-08, 06:53 AM
  #12  
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,130

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Check out BOTH of these links:
Sweet Spot Training
Sweet Spot Part Deux: How to Sweet Spot
waterrockets is offline  
Old 05-05-08, 07:04 AM
  #13  
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,840
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
because the guys on the wattage board say to, and they know everything
MDcatV is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.