"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Stage race training help, please

Old 05-06-08, 12:45 PM
  #1  
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Posts: 2,109

Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Stage race training help, please

July 3-6th I'll be doing my first stage race, the Fitchburg Lonsjo Classic as a Cat3.
it breaks down as follows, starting on thursday, ending Sunday:
20' uphill TT
70 mile very hilly RR
45 mile CR
25 mile Crit

I'm looking for advice on organization of training/racing to best prepare my body for the demands of this stage race.

My biggest weaknesses are long climbs (a big part of this race), probably endurance when it comes to an event like this and tactics.

I take recovery very seriously, and I'm hoping this will help keep my legs feeling decent for Saturday and Sunday.

I'm currently planning on organizing 3 day training blocks that somewhat simulate the energy demands of 3 tough days back to back.

Any advice is appreciated as is anything else related to stage racing.

Thanks

-Leo
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 12:53 PM
  #2  
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,840
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Friel cyclists training bible has a section specific to training to peak for a stage race, which would be good for you to consult.
MDcatV is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 01:32 PM
  #3  
cmh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I was going to mention training in 3-4 day blocks, but sounds like you are already up on that one.

I would make sure you go into the race was some clear goals and light expectations. Are you with a team? Will you be the best bet for the team gc leader? Since hills are not your strong point, maybe going into it just to survive the uphill TT and hilly RR and go for a stage podium or win in the CR or crit?

These stage races bring out very strong cat 3 fields (many cat 3s that are waiting until after the race to upgrade, for example). If hills are not a strong point you might be very dissappointed if your expectations are high. I went into the Mt Hood Classic last year after a very strong spring in the Cat 3 local races and I was very well schooled. That can be hard to take mentally. On the other hand, if your mindset is good, stage races are really, really fun.
cmh is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 01:55 PM
  #4  
Snuffleupagus
Aut Vincere Aut Mori
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 4,166

Bikes: Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Great advice above. I consult Friel's bible far more often than the other one
The big points he makes in the book are:
1. You need 6-8 weeks of lead time in order to prepare well
2. You need to "crash" e.g. work towards overload, and essentially over reach a bit
3. Plan ahead! work build, recover, build, recover, peak and race weeks into your plan
Snuffleupagus is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 02:02 PM
  #5  
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 20,967

Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Massage
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.

FYI: http://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Homebrew01 is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 02:46 PM
  #6  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,087

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Fitchburg is a very climbing slash FTP oriented race. Virtually no tactics, other than not to get dropped off the back or not to get caught behind a crash.

What are your strengths, what are you going for?

If you're in shape, you're in shape. Without too much specific training I was fine for 3 days in a row. I wasn't strong but I wasn't any worse than normal.

A couple Fitchburg things I've seen in the past. Read the rules. And read them again. Make sure you know where all the venues are, including parking.

If you're not going for the overall, then soft pedal the TT. There is no cut off. Or use it as a training ride. But don't bother with all the cool gear etc. Two teammates (3s, leadout and sprinter) that targeted the circuit and crit stages did the TT in their small ring. They won their two target races.

Circuit race - that hill is a pain in the butt, but what's worse is the pace cranking just after the top. It seems people took it easy the last time I did it on the flat section, and since a lot of guys simply don't know how to corner (yes, I'm talking 3s) it's pretty straight forward to blast through to the front before the last turn. However, if you break a spoke or something, you're SOL because, yep, no free lap. I was sitting 1st, 2nd, or 3rd up the hill the one lap I was in the field - then I broke a spoke. I timed the change - 45 seconds. I didn't get mad because I read a story where a pro didn't get mad at a slow change. Of course, I can't TT like a pro so I never caught on. I got lapped, stayed with them, and made it to the next day.

RR - if you get dropped, get lapped. Someone parked their enormous vehicle half in the road at the feed zone and a racer, trying to avoid it, fell onto my back wheel. I had to stop and let the guy get his cheek (face cheek, not the other cheek) out of my rear brake - and that was that. I tried my hardest not to get lapped because I thought they'd pull me. Later, I found out that if you get lapped, they let you finish the climb with the field and then add a lap of time. Obviously I didn't read the rules closely. Since the cutoff will be greater than a lap of time, get lapped. Let me say it again. If you get dropped in the RR, get lapped. I got dropped, didn't get lapped, and I was out of there (after they forced me to lay down in the medical tent for a bit - apparently I was a wreck).

Crit - it's a hard-ish crit simply because there are a lot of nervous non-crit riders and their teams time trialing at the front to keep things strung out. No faking it.

It's a very hard race to do well in, not nearly as hard just to finish. The year I went, the Junior that won the 3s later became the Junior World TT champion. Last year, a friend got 4th in the 3s. He really trained hard the previous winter after upgrading to 3, placed top 10 at Valley of the Sun in the 3s (not easy for someone who trained in CT all winter), etc etc. This year, with much less training, virtually no racing, and a lot of time off during the winter, he got 2nd at Battenkill - in the TWOs.

Good luck at the race,
cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 03:17 PM
  #7  
Duke of Kent
Senior Member
 
Duke of Kent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 4,850

Bikes: Yeti ASRc, Focus Raven 29er, Flyxii FR316

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
1) Block training.

2) Training till depletion.

3) Block training after No. 2.

It might sound crazy, it might be stupid. But, I train myself to be able to suffer through bad stretches, or races where my nutrition the night before or day of might not be ideal. If you can bonk and still go decently hard while doing so, you can survive to fight again another day.

Schedule*:
Today is a 3hr ride with a group ride in the middle. I'll do tempo out there, easy back.
Wed: 3hr ride, no food. Intervals.
Thurs: Same as Tues/Today.
Friday: Gut out an easy 2hrs.

Thursdays and Fridays are ROUGH.

*Only done in non-race weeks.
Duke of Kent is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 10:17 PM
  #8  
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Posts: 20,247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hey duke, why no food during the 3hr ride?

I have to eat if I do anything longer than an hour and a half- two hours even if it's just 200 calories. That is when I choose to carry water instead of gatorade or something.
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 05-06-08, 10:41 PM
  #9  
Duke of Kent
Senior Member
 
Duke of Kent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 4,850

Bikes: Yeti ASRc, Focus Raven 29er, Flyxii FR316

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
Hey duke, why no food during the 3hr ride?

I have to eat if I do anything longer than an hour and a half- two hours even if it's just 200 calories. That is when I choose to carry water instead of gatorade or something.
Note No. 2.

I don't do it often, and I don't like doing it, but I feel it's necessary. Everyone needs a good bonk every once in a while. Why? Because races don't always go as planned. Sometimes you miss a feed zone, sometimes you drop a bottle with 20 miles to go, sometimes that last PowerBar falls out of your pocket when you hit a bump in the road.

I know Paolo Bettini does this every once in a while as well. Eats a big breakfast, goes out with two water bottles, that's it, during a 5hr ride. Refills with water when he needs to, guts it out.

Train yourself to be able to cope. ***** happens, and no one else cares that you're bonking.
Duke of Kent is offline  
Old 05-07-08, 04:02 AM
  #10  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,087

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
One more thing, Fitchburg SR specific - your TT place will probably determine your overall, if you're going for overall. The TT is all uphill. The last bit of the RR is all uphill. Sprinter type folks can do better in the circuit race and crit, but not enough to take time. So if you get, say, 4th in the TT, you'll probably get 4th overall. If you get 50th then you know to save your legs for one or two stages because that's still pretty good. If you get 90th, then look at my advice about making the time cuts.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 05-07-08, 11:56 AM
  #11  
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Posts: 2,109

Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
thanks a ton, gents, for all the info here.

CDR, thaks for the specifics.

OK, my plans are ambitious, but this is my season's peak/high point, and I'm really dialed in and focused.

My goal is to finish top 15% in the overall classification. With this in mind, I plan on trying to nail the TT and the RR, seeing as the CR and Crit play more to my strengths and dont mean as much for the overall. I definitely plan to give it everything i've got to not get dropped from the leaders on the RR.

I've looked a Friel's SR training chapter a few times in the last day and have my 8 week schedule planned out. It begins next week. I'll be following it pretty closely, working towards assembling some 3 day blocks of 6500-8000 total Kjs combined. Planning R+R weeks after 3 hard weeks of training.
I'll likely do a sunday-monday-tuedsay block or a tues-wed-thurs block, depending on how my race schedule develops.

I dont see myself doing bonk training, but it remains on the back of my mind. I think 3 hard training days in a row will be enough to really beat the **** out of my CNS. I'll continue to focus on my LT intervals and climbing techniue. I'd like to see my w/kg top out around 4.2. I know that's not much for such hilly racing, but it's what i've got.

I will be pre riding the course a few times, but other than that, I dont have access to climbs longer than 6 minutes. Are there any types of intervals that may really suit the 20' uphill TT? I'm currently digging the 2x20's and have a realistic goal of doing 3x20' at 100% FTP soon. These efforts are finally feeling manageable.

Any more advice is always appreciated specifically concerning how to organize my 3 day blocks.

I see something like this happening:

Tuesday: 60" including a 20-25' LT interval followed by a 68 minute hammerfest and ending with L2 to get home. 2.75 hours and 2200 KJs

Wednesday: 3 hours mostly doing criscross tempo (some SST, some Endurance, but 150 minutes averaging around 75%) 3000 Kjs. these will suck for me.

Thursday: Climbing repeats @LT on the longest hills (5-6 minutes)I can get to mixed with Endurance work mixed in OR more LT intervals (3x15 @ 100%, maybe) 2800 kjs.

thanks again for the help.

-Leo
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline  
Old 05-07-08, 12:32 PM
  #12  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Just be careful with crash training. Either you get a nice fitness boost, or you get sick and end up way slower.

One of our best riders does a 3-day block that gets progressively more intense. Day one is 1hour at FTP, day 2 is VO2max intervals, day three is 30s - 1min AWC intervals. Claims that it really helps tweak the "fatigued jump/sprint." The order is important as it's backwards from what your body wants to do, which is slow down not speed up as fatigue builds.
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 05-07-08, 01:42 PM
  #13  
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Posts: 2,109

Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
thanks.

i'm a bit worried about over-cooking it too, but I'm willing to learn from experience during the first 2 Build weeks and adjust training as necessary for the 2nd build period if I do get to be an irritable, sore and depleted SOB.

I was also considering a block where I simulate the stage race order, i.e.: LT day one, long hard hilliness day 2+ group ride to finish and high intensity intervals on day 3.
We'll see.

thanks again.

-L
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline  
Old 05-30-08, 10:36 PM
  #14  
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Posts: 2,109

Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So far, so good. 2 weeks of build are done and I'm finishing up an R+R week. I did 10,500 kjs for the first 2 build weeks and actually felt really good. Confidence was inspired.

The 3rd day of each block really put some solid fatigue in my legs and I was still able to throw down with some confidence when needed.

Block training continues Sunday with 80-100 fast miles with a few buddies.

Thanks again for the help.

-L
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline  
Old 06-18-08, 07:47 PM
  #15  
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Posts: 2,109

Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, all is going well. I'm in the middle of week 6 of 8. R+R week.

Crash training went great and I developed huge confidence.

Looking forward to getting going with my last test this saturday on the TT course in Fitchburg.

I'm hoping my w/Kg has jumped a bit. I'll be aiming for 385w average for the TT course (18-19 minutes) which would put my LTP @ 4.2 w/kg (192 lbs). we'll see if this is too optimistic.

From there I've got tough workouts planned for sunday and tuesday (high intensity, less volume) and a bit more work @ LT for wed.


races Saturday and Sunday.

easy for the next 2 days and a leg opener on wednesday for the TT on Thursday the 3rd.

Any more tips???
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline  
Old 06-18-08, 10:00 PM
  #16  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,083
Mentioned: 154 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'd take a day (or two) off before the opener. If you ride Monday it should be 1.5 hours max <200w. Take that time to organize food and gear, and mentally think yourself through the stages.

Make sure you bring all the recovery tools at your disposal (drinks, foam roller, massage stick, compression garments). When you're done with the stage go immediately into refuel/recovery mode after your cool down. Don't stand around BS'ng with other racers. Get back to base and put the legs up.

Recovery is everything in these races.

Good luck!
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 06-19-08, 10:01 AM
  #17  
ldesfor1@ithaca
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Newton Ctr. MA
Posts: 2,109

Bikes: 2 cdale Caad7. Scatantte CX/winter bike. SS commuter.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
exactly my plan, Ex.

strict recovery commutes on Monday and Tuesday (8 miles toatal per day) and leg opener (5 minute effort @ TT pace, after good W.U.) Wednesday followed by mini carb load to really make sure my glycogen stores are maxed out.

I plan on taking recovery very seriously, thanks for the reminder, though.

One tactical question about recovery here, actually:

I'd love to slam down a recovery shake immediately after i finish the TT, but will be at the top of the TT course probably 10 miles away from my car. I plan on TTing with a waterbottle (just water) and I was thinking that if I put my recovery drink powder in a jersey pocket (in a baggie) i can mix up a shake at the TT finish line as long as I can find a spot of water.

any tips on how to make this happen??
ldesfor1@ithaca is offline  
Old 06-19-08, 10:23 AM
  #18  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
I'd take a day (or two) off before the opener. If you ride Monday it should be 1.5 hours max <200w. Take that time to organize food and gear, and mentally think yourself through the stages.

Make sure you bring all the recovery tools at your disposal (drinks, foam roller, massage stick, compression garments). When you're done with the stage go immediately into refuel/recovery mode after your cool down. Don't stand around BS'ng with other racers. Get back to base and put the legs up.

Recovery is everything in these races.

Good luck!
+1

Personally I find it hard to avoid the BSing trap. I make these great recovery plans but then I fail to follow them. I have now come to a compromise; I bring my bottle of recovery drink and drink that while chatting. Finishing the drink reminds me that I have been chatting long enough and it’s time to get away and rest.
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 06-19-08, 12:45 PM
  #19  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca View Post
One tactical question about recovery here, actually:

I'd love to slam down a recovery shake immediately after i finish the TT, but will be at the top of the TT course probably 10 miles away from my car. I plan on TTing with a waterbottle (just water) and I was thinking that if I put my recovery drink powder in a jersey pocket (in a baggie) i can mix up a shake at the TT finish line as long as I can find a spot of water.

any tips on how to make this happen??
I would use sport drink for the TT and finish that off on my way back to the car.

Another option is to just take a gel at the finish line and drink your recovery potion when you get back to the car.
Enthalpic is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.