"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Training Hypothetical

Old 05-08-08, 06:07 PM
  #1  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Training Hypothetical

You have 2 weekdays and 2 weekend days to train; 1hr on each of the weekdays and 2hrs on each of the weekend days.

How would you use that time to optimize FTP / TT performance.
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-08-08, 06:24 PM
  #2  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpongeDad View Post
You have 2 weekdays and 2 weekend days to train; 1hr on each of the weekdays and 2hrs on each of the weekend days.

How would you use that time to optimize FTP / TT performance.
On the weekdays go at the hardest pace you can maintain for an hour, for an hour. On the weekends, go the hardest pace you can maintain for two hours, for two hours. When you stop improving, do 5 efforts as hard as you can for 5 minutes with 5 minutes recovery on one weekday and one weekend ride. When you stop improving, go back to the beginning.
asgelle is offline  
Old 05-08-08, 06:42 PM
  #3  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,714
Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
more or less. bottom line is for 6 hours a week you should be on the verge of puking.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 05-08-08, 07:45 PM
  #4  
daytonian
elitist jerk
 
daytonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Blow - hio
Posts: 4,188

Bikes: CAAD9

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpongeDad View Post
You have 2 weekdays and 2 weekend days to train; 1hr on each of the weekdays and 2hrs on each of the weekend days.

How would you use that time to optimize FTP / TT performance.
what kind of racing are you doing?
daytonian is offline  
Old 05-08-08, 07:59 PM
  #5  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I occasionally do 25-40km TTs. Last year I was at 70 minutes on a flat course (road bike w/aerobars), but that was my first year trying any kind of structured training and I had more time. I was hoping to get down to 65 mins. If I could down to being able to ride at 22-23mph, I might add in some crits, but that's literally down the road.
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-08-08, 09:14 PM
  #6  
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Posts: 20,247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpongeDad View Post
I occasionally do 25-40km TTs. Last year I was at 70 minutes on a flat course (road bike w/aerobars), but that was my first year trying any kind of structured training and I had more time. I was hoping to get down to 65 mins. If I could down to being able to ride at 22-23mph, I might add in some crits, but that's literally down the road.
You do realize that going 22-23 by yourself and being able to go 25 in a crit are two totally different things because of drafting right?

I can't hold that kind of speed by myself, but I did okay in a flat crit averaging almost 25.
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 05:41 AM
  #7  
NomadVW 
部門ニ/自転車オタク
 
NomadVW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 3,173

Bikes: 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, 2012 Blue Norcross CX, 2016 Blue Axino SL, 2016 Scott Scale, Fixie, Fetish Cycles Road Bike (on the trainer)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
more or less. bottom line is for 6 hours a week you should be on the verge of puking.
That's why I ride so much. Less puking involved.
__________________
Envision, Energize, Enable
NomadVW is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 06:43 AM
  #8  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
You do realize that going 22-23 by yourself and being able to go 25 in a crit are two totally different things because of drafting right?

I can't hold that kind of speed by myself, but I did okay in a flat crit averaging almost 25.
No doubt, and being able to hold 22-23 doesn't mean you can blast out of the corners in a crit. Just more focused on the TT side for now.
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 06:56 AM
  #9  
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,840
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What I would consider given your goals and time limitations, YMMV.

weekdays: 10 minute Warmup, 20 min threshold or slightly above, 5 min recovery, 20 min threshold or slightly above, 5 min. cooldown. ON BIKE YOU'LL BE USING FOR TT. I would do these on the trainer so you can fully control the workout, sucky, but probably more effective than trying to navigate the mean streets of bethesda for a specific workout with time restrictions.

weekends: saturday - 7 a.m. or 10 a.m. group ride, pick up the 7 on bradley blvd about 7:15 - 7:20, peal off after democracy sprint around 9:00 a.m., home by 9:15. 10 a.m., pick up on tuckerman around 11:00 a.m., peal off on Falls Road or tuckerman, where ever is nearer in bethesda to where you are to be home by 1:00 p.m. Use your road bike with no aerobars, bet pushed way beyond your threshold or comfort zones by local racers. This'll take care of the VO2Max and anaerobic capacity needs of your workouts, when/if you get dropped, try to catch up, that'll force you into TT mode. Either way is win/win.

sunday: 20 min. WU, TT practice of distance, intensity, and on equipment you'll be racing, finish up with endurance mile riding until you get home. Could do on the 10 a.m. route in reverse so you're making right turns and have less interuptions. (would be something like Macarthur->falls->river->seneca->esworthy->river).
MDcatV is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 01:02 PM
  #10  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,331

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 868 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
if the goal is TT performance, lots of steady state intervals.

So 2 x 20's or 4 x10's twice during the week.

Endurance miles one weekend day, and 2x20's the next.

Youll need to mix it up week to week, and work on some other stuff,but that would be the core of the program.

And IMHO, its insane to just go out and do a repeated series of one and two hour TT's. If it didn't lead to physical injury, at least for me it would lead to hating life, and quitting the sport.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 01:22 PM
  #11  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
And IMHO, its insane to just go out and do a repeated series of one and two hour TT's. If it didn't lead to physical injury, at least for me it would lead to hating life, and quitting the sport.
The question wasn't what was most fun, but what would lead to the biggest improvement (though changing training routes should give enough variety to minimize boredom). Given total training volume is limited to 6 hours a week with the longest ride only 2 hours, there is minimal risk of injury. So ask yourself, is it better to get 40 or 60 minutes of useful training out of those 1 hour rides?
asgelle is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 02:17 PM
  #12  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
What I would consider given your goals and time limitations, YMMV.

weekdays: 10 minute Warmup, 20 min threshold or slightly above, 5 min recovery, 20 min threshold or slightly above, 5 min. cooldown. ON BIKE YOU'LL BE USING FOR TT. I would do these on the trainer so you can fully control the workout, sucky, but probably more effective than trying to navigate the mean streets of bethesda for a specific workout with time restrictions.

weekends: saturday - 7 a.m. or 10 a.m. group ride, pick up the 7 on bradley blvd about 7:15 - 7:20, peal off after democracy sprint around 9:00 a.m., home by 9:15. 10 a.m., pick up on tuckerman around 11:00 a.m., peal off on Falls Road or tuckerman, where ever is nearer in bethesda to where you are to be home by 1:00 p.m. Use your road bike with no aerobars, bet pushed way beyond your threshold or comfort zones by local racers. This'll take care of the VO2Max and anaerobic capacity needs of your workouts, when/if you get dropped, try to catch up, that'll force you into TT mode. Either way is win/win.

sunday: 20 min. WU, TT practice of distance, intensity, and on equipment you'll be racing, finish up with endurance mile riding until you get home. Could do on the 10 a.m. route in reverse so you're making right turns and have less interuptions. (would be something like Macarthur->falls->river->seneca->esworthy->river).
Which group runs the 7am ride?
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 02:23 PM
  #13  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Here's what I've been doing:

Tuesday: 15' warmup, 30s controlled "sprint"/ 30s rest x 20 resp, then cool down and 1 leg drills
Thursday: 15' warmup, 30min zone 3, low cadence, 15minute spin
Saturday: 1hr easy ride, 2x20', cooldown
Sunday: 2hr tempo/zone 3.

I'm guessing the 30s is just over 300 watts, the low cadence Zone 3 is about 185 watts, and the 2x20s 210 watts based on trainer specs (Road Machine). I could do the sprints harder, but not very many - probably should call them something else.

Last year, all those numbers were about 30 watts lower, so yes I'm slow, but not as slow as I used to be.
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 02:30 PM
  #14  
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,840
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SpongeDad View Post
Which group runs the 7am ride?
http://www.dcvelo.org/rides.php

I assume you're comfortable in a large fastmoving pack, it's a very hard ride, in parts, but re-groups naturally at the old anglers/great falls/brickyard area.


Here's what I've been doing:

Tuesday: 15' warmup, 30s controlled "sprint"/ 30s rest x 20 resp, then cool down and 1 leg drills
Thursday: 15' warmup, 30min zone 3, low cadence, 15minute spin
Saturday: 1hr easy ride, 2x20', cooldown
Sunday: 2hr tempo/zone 3.

I'm guessing the 30s is just over 300 watts, and the 2x20s 210 watts based on trainer specs (Road Machine). I could do the sprints harder, but not very many - probably should call them something else.
this doesnt appear to be at all consistent with your stated goals of TT focus.
MDcatV is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 02:31 PM
  #15  
wanders
going roundy round
 
wanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: High Point, NC
Posts: 6,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have the rock n roll and I'm doing essentially the exact same type of workouts except I'm racing on tuesday nights and my sundays are 3 hour group rides. Yard work sat.

My mid week trainer sessions are 15 minutes longer with some high rpm work, isolated leg work and low rpm mashing thrown in.



edit - I missed the part about TT. Mine is geared toward 30 minute crits

...and I suck.
wanders is offline  
Old 05-09-08, 03:46 PM
  #16  
SpongeDad
Overacting because I can
Thread Starter
 
SpongeDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Mean Streets of Bethesda, MD
Posts: 4,552

Bikes: Merlin Agilis, Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
[url]this doesnt appear to be at all consistent with your stated goals of TT focus.
That's pretty much what's precipitating my original questions - the low cadence, zone 3 came in to develop some ability to torque the cranks - I've often felt like it no matter how comfortable I am aerobically, my legs aren't strong enough to turn a higher gear for 1 minute or 60.
__________________
“Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." (Churchill)

"I am a courageous cyclist." (SpongeDad)
SpongeDad is offline  
Old 05-10-08, 08:09 PM
  #17  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,331

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 868 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
The question wasn't what was most fun, but what would lead to the biggest improvement (though changing training routes should give enough variety to minimize boredom). Given total training volume is limited to 6 hours a week with the longest ride only 2 hours, there is minimal risk of injury. So ask yourself, is it better to get 40 or 60 minutes of useful training out of those 1 hour rides?
How many people do you think are going to do a one or two hour TT every time they head out the door, truely give it maximum effort, and stay with the sport more than 6 months?

For me a one hour TT is a significant undertaking.

Even when I'm focusing on a TT, my preperation doesn't include a one hour TT. The longest TT intervals I do in training are 2 x30's.

The psychological cost of having to do a TT for the entire ride everytime I got on the bike would definitely make me quit.

And I bet 90% plus would either quit, or abandon that program pretty quickly.

Last edited by merlinextraligh; 05-11-08 at 08:16 AM.
merlinextraligh is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.