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Motorcycles vs. Scooters

Old 07-04-08, 02:46 PM
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Motorcycles vs. Scooters

Which one is better for moto-pacing?

I'm picking up a new motorcycle soon (for travel and for officiating ) and am wondering whether it would be a good tool for moto-pacing. I've heard that they might create too much of a draft. Is a scooter better?
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Old 07-04-08, 02:50 PM
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Levi gets motorpaced behind Odessa (or whatever her name is) on a scooter.
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Old 07-04-08, 02:59 PM
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I have both and drafted behind both. (years ago)

It is easier for the person doing the passing to do it on a scooter than moto.

A moto has to much acceleration and gets away for the bicycle to fast.

Scooters are also easier to ride a slow speeds than motos.

I have a bracket with a roller on it attached to the scooter so that I can come up real close.


MV
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Old 07-04-08, 03:05 PM
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+1
Ideally, a low-powered moto like a 125cc or something like that. But if you're trying to decide between the two: you can motorpace a motorcycle easier than you can moto-official on a scooter.
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Old 07-04-08, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike V View Post
I have a bracket with a roller on it attached to the scooter so that I can come up real close.
MV
Yes, the roller is the way to do it. And make sure you can trust your driver.

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Old 07-04-08, 04:01 PM
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As said before, most moto's have too much torque, so it takes off too fast and just letting off the gas, its slows down really fast, like the driver was hard on the brakes, which is really unnerving for the cyclist. You can do it but you have to put the moto in a high gear and really lug it.
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Old 07-04-08, 07:11 PM
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Hmm... that sounds pretty interesting. So a moto just takes off to quickly... that's actually really good to know.

Officiating a P/1/2 race on a scooter- now that would be funny.
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Old 07-04-08, 07:17 PM
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Scooter for motorpacing and a moto for officiating for all the reasons listed.
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Old 07-05-08, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by obra3 View Post
Hmm... that sounds pretty interesting. So a moto just takes off to quickly... that's actually really good to know.

Officiating a P/1/2 race on a scooter- now that would be funny.
No. No it would'nt. I'd get passed in less than a kilometer from the start. A Vespa 250 would keep up. But the cool factor goes right out the window. I love working P123 races on tight Crit courses on the Duc. I'd have to pay 300 bucks for a trackday to have more fun.

The only scooter i'd consider Moto reffing on is a Piaggio MP3 3 wheeler. The ones you see on the TV working the Giro. One of the regulars at Wednesday Italian bike night brought his this week. Very cool ride. He was parked next to a 1098 and eveyone wanted to talk about the scooter.

You could do moto pacing with it too.



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Old 07-05-08, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike V View Post
I have both and drafted behind both. (years ago)

It is easier for the person doing the passing to do it on a scooter than moto.

A moto has to much acceleration and gets away for the bicycle to fast.

Scooters are also easier to ride a slow speeds than motos.

I have a bracket with a roller on it attached to the scooter so that I can come up real close.


MV
Scooter or small moto. My coach used to make me hit the roller hard to start every workout, just to loosen me up a bit. Does make it easier to sit close.
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Old 07-05-08, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
My coach...
Let me guess: he'd take you up to some ridiculous speed and then tell you the pass him.

ha ha ha ha
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Old 07-06-08, 10:44 AM
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Heh. Yeah it would. Would get eaten alive.

Yeah- I looked at the Piaggio's- beautiful scooter- think it has enough oomph to carry two people? Myself and a photog? (also would use as a photo moto)

Originally Posted by FatguyRacer View Post
No. No it would'nt. I'd get passed in less than a kilometer from the start. A Vespa 250 would keep up. But the cool factor goes right out the window. I love working P123 races on tight Crit courses on the Duc. I'd have to pay 300 bucks for a trackday to have more fun.

The only scooter i'd consider Moto reffing on is a Piaggio MP3 3 wheeler. The ones you see on the TV working the Giro. One of the regulars at Wednesday Italian bike night brought his this week. Very cool ride. He was parked next to a 1098 and eveyone wanted to talk about the scooter.

You could do moto pacing with it too.



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Old 07-06-08, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
Let me guess: he'd take you up to some ridiculous speed and then tell you the pass him.

ha ha ha ha
Yea, he would beep that frikin horn, and im supposed to go around like I was some kind of cycling robot or somthin.
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Old 07-06-08, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by obra3 View Post
Heh. Yeah it would. Would get eaten alive.

Yeah- I looked at the Piaggio's- beautiful scooter- think it has enough oomph to carry two people? Myself and a photog? (also would use as a photo moto)
It should. I recall some 2up riding on them at the Giro. It has a 250cc motor, so it should have enough power to travel 2up, accellerate and manuver at bike race speeds. The guy at bike night said he had no trouble on the highway with it going 80mph.
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Old 07-06-08, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by FatguyRacer View Post
It should. I recall some 2up riding on them at the Giro. It has a 250cc motor, so it should have enough power to travel 2up, accellerate and manuver at bike race speeds. The guy at bike night said he had no trouble on the highway with it going 80mph.
Thanks for that info- that might be the ticket for my next purchase. I understand that moto's have issues with overheating especially on some of the climbs at bike racing speed. (feedback from some guys I know who moto some major stage races) If those Piaggio's can take the Giro- then I'm assuming they won't have that issue.
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Old 07-07-08, 06:50 AM
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The last hilly road race I did wasnt that bad. The ST4s i ride has a pretty stout system. The fan kicks on at 225 deg. Normally at race speeds I'm hoveing between 200-220 degs. There is an after market kit I can buy that lets me switch it on manually, but so far its been a pretty good performer. The 2 last crits I worked were both tight 8 corner town square affairs and were fast enough to get knees down. Cant really do that with a scooter.

I worked a crit about a month ago and the temp was 100+ degrees in the shade. The course had no shade. The fans never kicked on and the bike never ticked past 220. Me on the other hand went thru a couple gallons of water and had shattered wrists by the end of the day. My Duc has a dry clutch thats needs a strong pull at the lever. I definalty need a new clutch slave.

I think the real advantage of the scooter is the automatic tranny. Your wrists wont take a beating working the friction zone.

I am seriously considering a used BMW RT authority bike to replace my ST4s. It has everything I need for reffing. Stout cooling, lights that flash, a built in radio box, and the right presence. The local dealer has quite a few to sell. He's also the local Vespa/Piaggio dealer too. Demo time!
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Old 07-07-08, 08:01 AM
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Fatguy, can you tell me about the motoref course? The locals are recruiting and I'm listening.
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Old 07-07-08, 08:45 AM
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You have to take the USA Cycling Officals C level clinic first. All day clinc, open book test. Then you take the USA Cycling C level Moto clinc. All day clinic, closed book test. Thats it. The way it is set up you should be able to do it one right after the other about 1 month apart depending on the clinic dates in your area. Usually late winter, early spring, before race season starts. There is no on road testing. They give you the benifit of the doubt that you know how to pilot your scooter. What the clinics are teaching is the basics of officiating. I'm still C level since i just started this year, but i've already have experice enough to upgrade to B level on the scooter and after cross season, i'll have enough ground experience to upgrade to B on regular officiating. B to A takes a bit longer. B is like being a Cat 4. C is like being a Cat 5. The path from C to B is easy, but as you work your way up it harder and longer to achieve. Like Cat 4, you can stay at a B level as long as you want. But if you want to work the pro races, B level is the minimum. The A level guys are the Cat 3s. The P12 guys are the National Commisars. There are not very many National Commisars. Those guys are the 'continental pro' level officials. Most of them are scooter jocks to boot. The top of the top is UCI commissar. You can count all current American UCI commisars on one hand. I will proably work my way to A level official.

I'll be quite candid here. Being scooter trash aint for everybody. You really really have to love riding your moto. All day! I work harder as a ref than I ever did as a rider. Its not intense, but its a grind.
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Old 07-07-08, 09:54 AM
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There's a shortage so I figure I can split my season next year. Not sure about trying to pilot a GS on a crit course.
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Old 07-07-08, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CastIron View Post
There's a shortage so I figure I can split my season next year. Not sure about trying to pilot a GS on a crit course.
Ditch the knobs. One of the local scooter jocks uses his GS. Or I should say did. He took the year off. We got all kinds of bikes working the races around here. It's not an all Beemer world here.

I havent found reffing to be a hindrance to training and racing. I've worked most of the weekend's local events this season and raced the occasional 'must do' event and i'm doing wednesday training series just about every week. I get out for the club tues/thru rides quite regularly. If im not doing a double header race weekend, my Saturday or Sunday long ride is a loooooong ride. At least a metric, or its not worth heading out the door. Trust me when i tell you the bicycle fitness is a boon to working as a motoref.
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Old 07-07-08, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FatguyRacer View Post
The last hilly road race I did wasnt that bad. The ST4s i ride has a pretty stout system. The fan kicks on at 225 deg. Normally at race speeds I'm hoveing between 200-220 degs. There is an after market kit I can buy that lets me switch it on manually, but so far its been a pretty good performer. The 2 last crits I worked were both tight 8 corner town square affairs and were fast enough to get knees down. Cant really do that with a scooter.

I worked a crit about a month ago and the temp was 100+ degrees in the shade. The course had no shade. The fans never kicked on and the bike never ticked past 220. Me on the other hand went thru a couple gallons of water and had shattered wrists by the end of the day. My Duc has a dry clutch thats needs a strong pull at the lever. I definalty need a new clutch slave.

I think the real advantage of the scooter is the automatic tranny. Your wrists wont take a beating working the friction zone.

I am seriously considering a used BMW RT authority bike to replace my ST4s. It has everything I need for reffing. Stout cooling, lights that flash, a built in radio box, and the right presence. The local dealer has quite a few to sell. He's also the local Vespa/Piaggio dealer too. Demo time!
8 corner crit- must have been fun! Nice...

I'm going to be stopping by http://www.bendeuromoto.com/ this week. They're also supplying the motos for the Cascade Classic (And are a Piaggio dealer).

A buddy of mine loves doing traffic control- he says its the only time when he can blast by a cop at over 100 mph and the cop will smile and wave him through.

I'll be picking up a V-Strom 650 soon.

What sort of radio system do you have hooked up? GMRS into your helmet?
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Old 07-07-08, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by obra3 View Post
8 corner crit- must have been fun! Nice...

I'm going to be stopping by http://www.bendeuromoto.com/ this week. They're also supplying the motos for the Cascade Classic (And are a Piaggio dealer).

A buddy of mine loves doing traffic control- he says its the only time when he can blast by a cop at over 100 mph and the cop will smile and wave him through.

I'll be picking up a V-Strom 650 soon.

What sort of radio system do you have hooked up? GMRS into your helmet?
I havent bought a personal radio yet. I use a radio from our associations (MABRA) kit. They're YUSEA's. I take my hand off the clutch and work a remote mic and have a earpiece in my ear to hear. Earlier in the year I bought a throat mic and PTT button for my handle bar that was alleged to be compatible, but I the one race i tried to use it, it wasnt reliable. All the refs around here swear by Autocom systems and use Kenwoods or Yusea radios. In the offseason im gonna work on putting together a system.

V-strom is a good bike to use. One of the refs here uses a V-strom 1000 and his other bike is a Concours. I've never seen the Concours so that should tell you how much he likes the Vstrom.

Reffing is a good gig. You can definaltely let out your inner hooligan!
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Old 07-07-08, 11:26 AM
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How is the Duc for riding slow up climbs? When I had an Elefant (a Paris-Dakar type Ducati with a 900 Monster engine) it was not happy running engine speeds below 3k rpms and the dry clutch can't stand much slipping.

I have only done "lead moto" a couple times but it's been fun. Most recently I did lead moto for the Pescadero road race. My GS1200 was just barely able to go slow enough to keep pace on the steepest climb without slipping the clutch, and it was kind of unhappy about it.

Pesky is a very technical course with some real hairball descents. I've been motorcycling since the mid 70s, I've done road race track schools and a lot of dirt riding including 8 years of trials competition. Riding lead moto on this course used all my skills and I was beat by the end of the day. Based on my limited experience I wouldn't recommend lead moto/moto ref riding to someone who didn't already have a lot of motorcycling experience.
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Old 07-07-08, 12:27 PM
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The last RR had a pretty steep wall on it, but it was mercifully short. The Cat 4 women really put a hurt on the pace, but the Duc handled it pretty well. It thought it would be an issue, but it wasnt. However since theres not a lot of movement in the saddle on a long RR, i was getting a nice case of monkey butt. I remember my 2v Monster hated low rpms. The 4v 996 in my ST doenst seem to mind at all. I have probably developed bone crushing strength in my left hand from the clutch pull. I've noticed the last couple of races my wrist dont hurt as much. I guess they're getting trained just like legs do from riding.

I hadnt noticed which posistion is harder, tail or lead. I prefer to be tail end charile on the faster groups and lead on the slower ones. There's more to do as tail since tail moto is first responder on crashes.
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Old 07-08-08, 10:16 AM
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Bump

Here's a website with links to the training materials for the Clinic. Dont worry about the MACO stuff.

http://www.skooterrefs.com/
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