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Lemond's got it all figured out

Old 09-25-08, 07:45 PM
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Lemond's got it all figured out

We don't need drug testing to catch dopers, so why waste money on that? You think he's questioned Garmin and Columbia's programs in the same way?

LeMond immediately brought Catlin’s methods into question, claiming that VO2 max, oxygen intake and power output can be used as indicators of whether a rider has used illicit performance-enhancing methods.
http://www.velonews.com/article/83679/
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Old 09-25-08, 07:50 PM
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lol. Greg's got my vote for president of WADA. Bet he does a better job than good ol' Dickey
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Old 09-25-08, 08:02 PM
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Hmm, Greg was a prodigious cyclist in his day - better than most. Wonder if any of his samples remain frozen in the basement of some lab somewhere. Except for the lead traces, wonder what else they might find?









Okay, okay - that was in bad taste.
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Old 09-25-08, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by snoboard2 View Post
lol. Greg's got my vote for president of wada. Bet he does a better job than good ol' dickey
+1
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Old 09-25-08, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RockyMtnMerlin View Post
Hmm, Greg was a prodigious cyclist in his day - better than most. Wonder if any of his samples remain frozen in the basement of some lab somewhere. Except for the lead traces, wonder what else they might find? Okay, okay - that was in bad taste.
We could go all the way back to his tour of bisbee victory, when he beat all the best elite level men in the country as a junior. Or maybe back to his Junior World Championship victory. I'm sure we'll turn up something.
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Old 09-25-08, 09:14 PM
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Lemon-head is such a do*che
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Old 09-25-08, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dubbayoo View Post
We don't need drug testing to catch dopers, so why waste money on that? You think he's questioned Garmin and Columbia's programs in the same way?



http://www.velonews.com/article/83679/
All I can ask about LeMond's attempts is:

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Old 09-25-08, 11:26 PM
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LeMond is correct.
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Old 09-25-08, 11:39 PM
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I was told there was a video for this. Is that true? I've seen nothing.
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Old 09-26-08, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by skinny View Post
We could go all the way back to his tour of bisbee victory, when he beat all the best elite level men in the country as a junior. Or maybe back to his Junior World Championship victory. I'm sure we'll turn up something.
EPO didnt exist but blood doping sure did ... and it was legal.


So.... whats your point?
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Old 09-26-08, 10:26 AM
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Unlike Armstrong, Garmin and Columbia weren't linked to the infamous Dr. Ferarri.
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Old 09-26-08, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by sagginwagin View Post
Unlike Armstrong, Garmin and Columbia weren't linked to the infamous Dr. Ferarri.
Columbia is linked with T-Mobile. Before Stapleton took over, T-Mobile was heavily doped in the 90s (Riis, Aldag, Zabel, Ullrich). There's a link!!! Oh my God!
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Old 09-26-08, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sagginwagin View Post
Unlike Armstrong, Garmin and Columbia weren't linked to the infamous Dr. Ferarri.

A Lemond quote:
In the 80s when I was racing we did VO2 Max testing, but it was to see the physical fitness. My first VO2 Max test was up in Squaw Valley on a treadmill and I had a 79 VO2 Max non-specific sport. But once I actually really started doing VO2 Max testing on a consistent basis in ’89… now you know it depends upon the level of fitness and training…I was on average about 6.2 to 6.4 liters of Oxygen, which translated to my racing weight would be 92, 93, 94 VO2 Max. I think only cross-country skier Bjørn Dæhlie [Generally considered the greatest Nordic skier of all time, 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist 15 km, 50 km, 4 x 10 km relay cross country skiing], had those same numbers. So I think I had one of, if not the highest.

Now I don’t know Merckx’s. I don’t think Merckx ever did a VO2 Max. So, I’m certain he was up there. I think Bernard Hinault’s VO2 Max was 88. I think I was of the top….
Lemond seems to be saying that doesn't matter. Apparently if you put out more power than he did you must be doping. There will always be somebody bigger, better, faster coming down the pike. It's like Mark Spitz claiming Michael Phelps is doping because he went faster than Spitz. He may very well have but I don't see how the power numbers alone tell that story.

Both Greg and Lance exhibited tremendous capacity at an early age but I think on an even comparison LA would outperform GL consistently.
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Old 09-26-08, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RockyMtnMerlin View Post
Hmm, Greg was a prodigious cyclist in his day - better than most. Wonder if any of his samples remain frozen in the basement of some lab somewhere. Except for the lead traces, wonder what else they might find?

Okay, okay - that was in bad taste.
I think the fact that LeMond suddenly got dropped like a stone by Indurain and all the others when EPO became available shows pretty well that he was clean, and was not part of the EPO train.
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Old 09-26-08, 12:55 PM
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LeMond is suggested that if someone tests CLEAN, but then puts out more watts per pound of body weight than LeMond, that is proof of doping. Under that theory, almost every guy who wins races in Europe is doping, because all of the consistent winners put out more watts per pound than the consistent losers. His argument is: "if you are winning, you are doping".
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Old 09-26-08, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston View Post
LeMond is suggested that if someone tests CLEAN, but then puts out more watts per pound of body weight than LeMond, that is proof of doping. Under that theory, almost every guy who wins races in Europe is doping, because all of the consistent winners put out more watts per pound than the consistent losers. His argument is: "if you are winning, you are doping".
My understanding of what LeMond is saying is that you can look at trends, i.e. a Tour contender does not have a variance of +- 15% Watts over the period of the year.
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Old 09-26-08, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
I think the fact that LeMond suddenly got dropped like a stone by Indurain and all the others when EPO became available shows pretty well that he was clean, and was not part of the EPO train.
The blood doping train left the station around the time of Lemond's arrival in Europe. The U.S. Track Cycling team did it in the 1984 Olympics. Besides, at the time of his retirement Lemond blamed his demise on some ailment that I can't recall. EPO coincided with the sudden success of Indurain and Rominger.
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Old 09-26-08, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
I think the fact that LeMond suddenly got dropped like a stone by Indurain and all the others when EPO became available shows pretty well that he was clean, and was not part of the EPO train.
+1

And to add Hampsten is another example (same tour years)
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Old 09-26-08, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kukusz View Post
My understanding of what LeMond is saying is that you can look at trends, i.e. a Tour contender does not have a variance of +- 15% Watts over the period of the year.
In an interview with LeMond from a few years ago, LeMond estimated that when Pantani set the record going up Alpe D'Huez, his vo2 max was somewhere in the 99 ml/kg/min, far higher than any other athlete ever tested. In essence the performance improvement trends weren't linear, they were off the charts.

So before you dismiss LeMond as a bitter, old kook, hear him out. He understands the science behind cycling and he can do the math. If his math is right, it's obvious Pantani, and others, were doping to achieve the results they were getting.

Here's the interview...

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=21

Oh yeah, if you REALLY want a treat, listen to the Betsy Andreu interview. If these links have been distributed before my apologies.

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=154
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Old 09-27-08, 07:31 PM
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lance's vo2 max is nowhere near lemond's.
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Old 09-27-08, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dubbayoo View Post
Both Greg and Lance exhibited tremendous capacity at an early age but I think on an even comparison LA would outperform GL consistently.
Give me extensive doping controls, (so presuambly a level playing field) and I'll take 1986 Lemond over 2001 Armstrong for a Grand Tour by a small margin, and by a pretty significant margin for a Classic Race or the World Championship.

Those who didn't see Lemod race are not giving the devil his due.
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Old 09-27-08, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LT Intolerant View Post
If his math is right, it's obvious Pantani, and others, were doping to achieve the results they were getting.
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=154
Yeah, and if my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle. The fact that when some of the racers went through significant testing and when nothing was found, the naysayers said it had to be some untraceable drug because they could not be better than GL. No doubt he was great but just because another rider is better does not make them a dopper.
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Old 09-27-08, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post
All I can ask about LeMond's attempts is:

That's the way you do it.
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Old 09-27-08, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
..Those who didn't see Lemod race are not giving the devil his due.
I grew up idolizing Lemond and I never saw him race at that time. All I saw were Tour de France highlights on ABC's Wide World of Sports with Jim McKay. I get what your saying though. There is a fine line between genius and madness and man let me tell you, he's getting pretty close to the latter.
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Old 09-27-08, 10:43 PM
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I'm not an LA fan and have been defending Lemond for a while but I find what he did at Interbike to be in poor judgment.

He was invited, giving center front row seating and first question. LA gave him enough rope and Lemond hung himself. Good tactical move by LA; He feigns the high road and allows Lemond to discredit himself.

Lemond has a good point in using gains in VO2 Max and W/kg as indicators of doping. As he says in the interview posted earlier, he was at the top of the game and, if another rider was going to be better than him it would be by a margin of 1-2% MAX. That's what separates the top 20 in any big race. But when you start seeing jumps of 5-10%, QUICKLY, then a red flag should go up.

You can hide all kinds of drugs (think Balco) but performance can be measured and dramatic jumps could demonstrate potential doping.

It's too bad Lemond can't get his point across another way...
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