Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here!

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here!

Reply

Old 03-23-09, 05:27 PM
  #326  
Apus^2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Looking for my right leg muscles.
Posts: 1,202

Bikes: 2000 Cannondale CAAD3 Triple 105/Ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
check out the wattage forum on google. it has been, and is being, extensively discussed.
Apus^2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-09, 05:40 PM
  #327  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by jonestr View Post
I am sure this has been debated before, but I will bring it up any way.

NP is a method for smoothing the data. It is supposedly consistent with some physiology that is never brought up. It seems like there should be a better way to smooth the data than just taking powers and doing moving averages. If you assume that all the noise is gaussian then your average power should be the smoothed power for a large data set.

Is anyone with me in thinking NP is a bit arbitrary or am I out on a limb here?
NP isn't for smoothing, it is for estimating the metabolic cost of an effort. The idea is that a very high power effort affects you more than a moderate effort would, and that you don't recover immediately through lower power efforts.

Last edited by umd; 03-23-09 at 05:45 PM.
umd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-09, 05:56 PM
  #328  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,486
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Originally Posted by jonestr View Post
NP is a method for smoothing the data. It is supposedly consistent with some physiology that is never brought up.
Brought up where? It's been discussed on many sites, the Wattage e-mail group, the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter," and elsewhere. If you haven't seen it, you're not looking. There's no way I can come close to explaining it as well as Andy Coggan has (repeatedly) so I suggest a search on Coggan and normalized power for an explanation.
asgelle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-09, 06:10 PM
  #329  
Apus^2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Looking for my right leg muscles.
Posts: 1,202

Bikes: 2000 Cannondale CAAD3 Triple 105/Ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
+1 to asgell. go to google wattage forum and search this:

lies, damned lies, and statistics (everything you need to know about how the NP algorithm treats variability)
Apus^2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-09, 06:23 PM
  #330  
ZeCanon
Writin' stuff
 
ZeCanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,784
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I quite often end up with NP numbers well over my FTP during technical crits, so for me (without Training Peaks and thus without all the other things that come from/with NP) NP is a completely useless number. For example, my crit saturday night had an NP of 331, over 20w higher than my actual FT.

But it's a great way to make mediocre power numbers look great here on bikeforums. Kind of like setting your powertap not to record zeros - I tried that once and had an average power of 382w for an hour long crit! sweet
ZeCanon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-09, 06:26 PM
  #331  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Apus^2 View Post
+1 to asgell. go to google wattage forum and search this:

lies, damned lies, and statistics (everything you need to know about how the NP algorithm treats variability)
Sounds oddly familiar.
Enthalpic is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-09, 06:21 PM
  #332  
kudude
slow up hills
 
kudude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931

Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey ladies and gents (probably mostly gents)

I just got a Powertap SL. Black hub, no carbon, I think it's a little old, but I got probably the deal of a lifetime on it (you don't want to know). However -- I can't seem to get it set up. I have the wheel on, and am trying to get a signal to the head unit. My understanding is that I should be able to spin the wheel and if i have the shark fin near it -- I should see something on the HU. Speed, etc. I don't get a signal. Should I assume the batteries in the hub are dead? Is there a good way of checking?

thanks
kudude is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-09, 06:25 PM
  #333  
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Posts: 632

Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it is a pro, not an SL, I saw one listed on ebay that went for $299 last week-it also said sl.

Does your CPU have watt's written on the top line?
irish pat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-09, 06:40 PM
  #334  
Jynx
.....
 
Jynx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Long Island
Posts: 4,816

Bikes: 2006 Cannondale CAAD8

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Hopefully this is the right spot. I am going to be picking up a powertap. Not sure if I want a 32 hole or a 28 hole. Prety much everyone I see is a 32 hole 3x both sides. This seems to be the standard. Is there a reason for this other than durability? Anything to do with the powermeter? I have heard some places saris prefers certain lacing patterns for accuracy. Any problems with other setups? What would you recomend? Thanks
__________________
Weight Listing Index (Feel Free to add to it!)

Buy your bike parts here
Jynx is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-09, 06:56 PM
  #335  
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Posts: 632

Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For the few extra grams of four spokes, I would err on the side of caution. It causes no difference in accuracy, they even make bontrager 16 spoke hubs.
I have had two 32's, I use them for training and C races, if I were going for race wheel ptap, I would go with fewer spokes and a deeper rim, currently I have DT swiss, rr1.1, it looks great and is solid as a rock.
irish pat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-09, 11:13 PM
  #336  
kudude
slow up hills
 
kudude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931

Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by irish pat View Post
I think it is a pro, not an SL, I saw one listed on ebay that went for $299 last week-it also said sl.

Does your CPU have watt's written on the top line?
don't know if this was a reply to me, but not sure how you would know if it was a pro or SL from my post. I have the 'yellow 1' cpu, and I paid less than what you've listed. When you say watts on the top line -- top line of what? The very top line of the cpu appears to list the number of watts, but the word is below that, on the lcd.
kudude is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 12:40 AM
  #337  
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Posts: 632

Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by kudude View Post
don't know if this was a reply to me, but not sure how you would know if it was a pro or SL from my post. I have the 'yellow 1' cpu, and I paid less than what you've listed. When you say watts on the top line -- top line of what? The very top line of the cpu appears to list the number of watts, but the word is below that, on the lcd.
I could be mistaken, but I thought the SL only came with carbon on the hub/shell-either way it does not matter, you got a great deal.

Okay, so the CPU is in the right mode, you can check to see if the cpu and harness are working by setting the cpu to cyclocomputer mode. Watts should then disappear. If the sensor does not pick up the magnet and display speed, then it is more than likely the harness. If it picks up the magnet, then you know that it is the hub and the first thing to do is change the batteries.

I hope this helps.
irish pat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 11:05 AM
  #338  
kudude
slow up hills
 
kudude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931

Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by irish pat View Post
I could be mistaken, but I thought the SL only came with carbon on the hub/shell-either way it does not matter, you got a great deal.

Okay, so the CPU is in the right mode, you can check to see if the cpu and harness are working by setting the cpu to cyclocomputer mode. Watts should then disappear. If the sensor does not pick up the magnet and display speed, then it is more than likely the harness. If it picks up the magnet, then you know that it is the hub and the first thing to do is change the batteries.

I hope this helps.
Thank you for the helpful response. I'm sorry if my comment before came across as rude -- things not related to the forum causing my to respond like a dick on the forum.

I'll check that right away.
kudude is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 11:19 AM
  #339  
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Posts: 632

Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by kudude View Post
Thank you for the helpful response. I'm sorry if my comment before came across as rude -- things not related to the forum causing my to respond like a dick on the forum.

I'll check that right away.
No problem, I know what it's like, thanks for the amends.

PM me if you run into problems getting it up and running, glad to be able to help.
irish pat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 05:40 PM
  #340  
johnybutts
Senior Member
 
johnybutts's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,315

Bikes: Type of horse.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Question for Low AWC limitation: my chart follows:
5" - 11.89 W/kg
1' - 5.82 W/kg
5' - 4.1 W/kg
FTP - 3.27 W/kg

following the category chart, My 5" and 1' are completely untrained, but my FTP and 5' are deep in cat5 territory. If I want to improve on the AWC component of my curve is it best to develope week by week 30" > 1' > 2' intervals. Or should i mix and match all these together to just see what the hell pops out on the other end? I've got a solid 5 weeks before any races I care about so i have time to play around. Any advice?
johnybutts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 05:54 PM
  #341  
Hocam
Ho-Jahm
 
Hocam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
How do you guys deal with lost data? I went for a really hilly ride on wet roads and lost the powertap after the first hour. I think I'll just multiply the TSS by 2.5 (3 hour ride) which sounds reasonable but what about entering kJ?
Hocam is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 05:57 PM
  #342  
procrit
carbon is too light
 
procrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 950

Bikes: Cannondale Road / Orbea TT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you get dropped, your 5" and 1' power are totally useless anyway. I'd do 2 days of SST / Tempo, and probably throw in a day of vo2 intervals, and a day of 20 minute FTP intervals. That should be PLENTY of training stimulus to get you going. Set it up something like:

Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST

Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
procrit is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 05:57 PM
  #343  
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Posts: 632

Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you have good base, I would focus on getting stronger 20'/ftp and 5'vo2, I would do this by doing some LT intervals one day a week and some vo2 intervals one day a week. It is worth getting the Friel training bible, if you are serious about this.

It is not much use having 5" power if you cannot hang with the pack.
irish pat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 06:01 PM
  #344  
johnybutts
Senior Member
 
johnybutts's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,315

Bikes: Type of horse.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Originally Posted by irish pat View Post
If you have good base, I would focus on getting stronger 20'/ftp and 5'vo2, I would do this by doing some LT intervals one day a week and some vo2 intervals one day a week. It is worth getting the Friel training bible, if you are serious about this.

It is not much use having 5" power if you cannot hang with the pack.
point taken. So this wouldn't be the time for the "train your weaknesses" mantra? just go ahead and keep building FTP?
johnybutts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 06:19 PM
  #345  
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Posts: 632

Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by procrit View Post
If you get dropped, your 5" and 1' power are totally useless anyway. I'd do 2 days of SST / Tempo, and probably throw in a day of vo2 intervals, and a day of 20 minute FTP intervals. That should be PLENTY of training stimulus to get you going. Set it up something like:

Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST

Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
SNAP!! you beat me to it.
irish pat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 06:22 PM
  #346  
irish pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: new paltz, ny
Posts: 632

Bikes: kestrel talon, Ultegra group,AC sprint 350 wheelset, Trek alpha sl 2500, 105 group,Mavic ssl sl wheelset, ridley crossbow, 105 rear der, single front, Redline Conquest, tiagra group, Fuji single speed, Mongoose Mtn bike,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by johnybutts View Post
point taken. So this wouldn't be the time for the "train your weaknesses" mantra? just go ahead and keep building FTP?
Absolutely focus on your FTP, your other #'s will also improve with these. Later on you can do some sprint work etc. But, I was reading Coggans book and he highly discourages any top level training for at least the first year of serious cycling/training.
Remember you are training for the future, not just a month down the road, but one, two, three years etc.
Good luck.
irish pat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 06:24 PM
  #347  
johnybutts
Senior Member
 
johnybutts's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,315

Bikes: Type of horse.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Originally Posted by procrit View Post
If you get dropped, your 5" and 1' power are totally useless anyway. I'd do 2 days of SST / Tempo, and probably throw in a day of vo2 intervals, and a day of 20 minute FTP intervals. That should be PLENTY of training stimulus to get you going. Set it up something like:

Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST

Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
MM, i'll work off this. just for clarification is this correct?
FTP intervals 100% FTP
SST/Tempo 93% FTP
VO2 intervals 115% FTP

I have ~1hr round trip bike commute every day which I'll keep in tempo zone like 70-90%
johnybutts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 06:52 PM
  #348  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,486
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Originally Posted by irish pat View Post
But, I was reading Coggans book...
Allen and Coggan (in that order).
asgelle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 06:59 PM
  #349  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by johnybutts View Post
point taken. So this wouldn't be the time for the "train your weaknesses" mantra? just go ahead and keep building FTP?
It's all weakness... train what's most important.
umd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-09, 07:02 PM
  #350  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by irish pat View Post
But, I was reading Coggans book and he highly discourages any top level training for at least the first year of serious cycling/training.
This is where group rides with much faster people are helpful. Basically race intensity but you don't necessarily get dropped and it's all over, you get to keep coming back for more. The intensity is there but there's no structure so you get some of the benefits without having to worry about/deal with training plans, cycles, peaking, etc.
umd is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service