burnthesheep

Thoughts from a guy one year into training with power:


The race is the war. You need some weapons skills to be able to fight the war, but those weapons also need to be sharp.


There's a place for punishment on the trainer (or formalized training), and a place for the group ride. I don't think you can live up to 100% of your potential (whether that's winning a race, or moving up from the B to A group ride) without a little mix of both.


I find if you only do group rides and race sims, there are lots of times you may have something you want to improve in a specific physiological "area" the group ride won't provide because you're already stressed enough in other areas you can't effectively push the limit in another place.


Same for the trainer. The real world isn't lots of nice neat little intervals of exactly Xmin followed by Ymin of rest. But, those intervals provide very specialized stress to your system and it works.


I probably do 1/3 formalized trainer sessions, 1/3 solo training rides, 1/3 group rides.


The guys in the group who only do group rides are still plenty strong. They easily ride 2 more hours per week than I do. But, if an effort is longer than about 3min I can usually pull some significant gaps.


People who only group ride (and never bother to break out or try things), will never accumulate significant stress in some of the training zones.


People who only do trainer stuff I'd guess struggle putting the pieces together in an efficient way in a group or race.


That's my take. The mix must work if I can drop groups who put in a few hours more than I do per week.

Hermes

mattm

You're also otf in most group rides, that makes a difference. People that sit in and wait for the sprints will end up with a much different power profile.

edit: @Hermes beat me to it, I'm getting slow in my old age!

Ygduf

Maybe @Hermes is getting quicker is his old age!

I think my point was more that group rides don't need to be junk. If you sit in the whole way and never stress yourself, then yeah, they'll suck. But if you sit on rollers at 70% for 3 hours, you'll still suck then too. Overarching point: you have to try really ****ing hard if you want to be any good.

rubiksoval

By the time I was a cat 3 the group rides stopped being challenging, but I kept doing them because it was the only way I could stay motivated to do bigger hours. But If I ride off the front, the group behind blows up. Kind of a dick way to get fitness around here. If I had some proper group rides, maybe I'd consider differently. Now my only group rides are much smaller with guys that will ride similar to the way I ride, but they're also less frequent. If I go to a Tues/Thurs/Sun ride and ride even a bit above threshold for more than a minute or two I'll be by myself pretty quickly. We just don't have the depth or quality of riders where I live and rides are simply too slow.

So I just do mostly workouts on my own rides where I don't have to stop pedaling. So anyway, to the point, my last few years of 8-12 hours is getting me more quality than 20-25 hours used to get me, which is important at this point when I have no time nor desire to ride longer.

I don't know how trainer workouts came into the mix, but I don't have to bother with those other than a month or two in the winter, so I don't. Can never get nearly the same effort levels or motivation on that.

mattm

All of that makes sense - but how do you know those years of 20+ hours didn't help you get to where you are now?

I totally believe there is value in being more efficient - quality over quantity. But there are known adaptations from long hours (at z2), right?

rubiksoval

I'm sure there are, but I'm not talking about long hours of z2. More z1 and coasting. I did a few rides early on with a powermeter where 50% would be z1 or below. Most of my rides now are closer to 10% below z2.

In any case, I would never redo what I did earlier on. And I wouldn't let my son do that, either. I genuinely feel it's a massive waste of time and not conducive to riding as well as you can, and at times a step backwards.

First thing I'd suggest to someone not riding/racing well on 15+ hours would be to scale back.

burnthesheep

I'm enjoying the outdoor riding this time of year. I tend to do my longer intervals indoors on the trainer given where I live and how well those would not go outdoors.

So, question: for the "power intervals", can I get by doing them outdoors on some 2 minute hills at proper intensity versus doing 3min intervals on the trainer?

I have gotten 25lb lighter and a ton stronger in the last year. The hills that were good for 3 min intervals are down now to 2min or so. I don't care for making special trips out of town to hit the country roads instead.

If I do 350 to 400w at 2min instead of 330ish watts for 3min, am I going to get the same benefit? Kind of like two sets of 4x2min versus 3x3min.

Ttoc6

Your body will adapt differently to 3 minute intervals than 2 minute intervals, but how much? That depends on your own circumstances. To take the example further, it's almost like saying would 20x1 minute get the same effect as doing 1x20 minute.

MDcatV

maybe, try it out and see how you feel and where you're wattages are in the 3rd and 4th efforts vs. the 3rd effort of a 3' interval, and whether you're fatigue slope on the interval efforts are similar, but to be pedantic, look at your proposal. you're reducing the "work" by a minute overall. I usually view a 2' interval as an anaerobic work capacity workout and a 3 minute as being more of an aerobic effort as they are traditionally done at different "levels" with the 2' being more L6 and 3' being more upper L5

keep in mind that you dont need to go uphill to do an interval - you just need to be uninterrupted. that's a great thing about a powermeter, you can look at the device and see the Ws you're throwing down and adjust your gearing (i.e. force) and/or cadence accordingly.

congrats on the fitness gains you've seen so far

furiousferret

How do people deal with the power differences on the trainer vs. outdoors?

Some say that the power difference is a myth, but for me (and many others) its 7-8% less. I judge my weekly performance on 'time over tempo' which is the added time of z3, z4, z5, etc... Outdoors anything over 200 watts (if your ftp is 270....mine is uh 450) but with indoor variation that's 185w (z3+) and a 250 FTP. If I hit over 4 hours over z3 that's good, 6 hours is the goal.

This all sounds petty but yesterday I did almost an hour at 'trainer' threshold, but since it was on a trainer it was 7% less and I lose about 25 minutes of threshold work, and some z3 drops to z2. My legs don't really tell a difference but when I review my power data for a week or month its not really telling me how things actually went. My 'time over tempo' may show 4 hours when its actually 5.

Hermes

I have been a little short in the W column. I will take this one.

MDcatV

i've done a ton of indoor training and for me power differences are typically within the range of a given zone/level

the ranges are pretty wide, so if you're below it, then first thing i'd do is check calibrations

if all good, then go with feel and try to put yourself in the range of the level you're targeting, if you can't get there, then eke it out as close to the bottom of the level as you can and call it good

Hermes

@furiousferret https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/clim...-are-affected/ is an article about climbing versus time trialing but I suggest that one can view the trainer through a similar lens. The muscle recruitment is different on the trainer and thus may make it harder for cyclists compared to the road. I find 7 to 10% as a good derating factor but at the same time if I do more trainer work, I will get adaptation and it will become easier.

mattm

Ah yeah I was assuming big volume of z2. Historically I've done well with large helpings of z2 in the training season. For me z2 is so much easier than any other kind of structured workout ("easy" in terms of just cruise in z2 for as long as possible, as opposed to 2x20' @ 80% following by 5x5' @ 75.5% etc).

The larger point though is I think a lot of cat 1's that have been doing this for 5+ years (and most likely big volume at some point in their past), switch to more focused training and get away with it - or even improve. But that work done in the past still counts, if that makes sense. So it's a tough sell to say "I didn't need to do that in the past".

All that said it does sound like a bunch of z1/coasting is not useful, no matter the volume.

mattm

I think you just have to accept it. The good news is even if you're not hitting specific wattages, you're stressing the body some so it at least counts for something.

When I get on the rollers (granted, not that often - maybe 10 times a year) I just try to look at HR mostly, and work on pedaling form. Some high cadence work too.

burnthesheep

ancker

There's two types of indoor vs outdoor power discrepancy:
1) PM wattage discrepancy (indoor PM higher/lower than outdoor PM)
2) RPE wattage discrepancy

For #1 , just adjust accordingly. I have two quarqs and a P2M, all three read about 7-10% higher than my Tacx Neo reports. I don't know which are "accurate" and don't really care.
For #2 , there is data to suggest that the fixed position (the bike needs to move under you), lack of adequate cooling (a nice fan still isn't enough), and mental issues (it sucks riding inside) all contribute to why you can't reach the same power indoors vs outdoors. I usually just crank up the fan and suffer away. I think with practice you get better at matching power. Doing a 10m interval indoors isn't as fun as on the road, but convincing yourself that it's making you stronger really helps dull the boredom. At least for me.

hubcyclist

I might be one of the only people with better power inside than outdoors lol I think it's comparable, actually, it's just that I don't have the mental discipline to do a lot of structured stuff outdoors, I think the last time I did a real workout outside was last summer near my parents' home, where it's a bit easier to do 20min intervals at fairly steady power. otherwise I do most of my stuff inside and just let myself do whatever when I do venture out.

furiousferret

I have both issues, but not as bad as you. My Neo is about 3% lower than the Vectors, and even with my massive fan I still sweat like crazy. Even if its 110 outside I still sweat more indoors when its 70. [TMI ALERT] So much so I have to put on diaper rash cream after my trainer sessions [END TMI ALERT]

I think you may be on to something; I have the power profile of a Kenyan. I'm not sure how much I can change this but on the trainer the effort level does seem to match more of a TT effort, especially if resistance is off.

Its something I want need to fix because not having that fast twitch kills me in most races. I may have an FTP 20 watts higher than the guy next to me, but because that guy can do 100 more watts for a minute he's never detached from the pack. I've learned to cheese it a bit by going otf before 1 minute efforts (i.e. short hills) but that doesn't always work.

Ttoc6

You and me both, man. It's actually frustrating to be good at things that don't matter. I hit yearly best power maxes on monday during a zwift race and was fine to recover and then still put in a good effort. Same power meters Outdoor to indoor. What's wrong with us?

echappist

What are the conditions indoor v outdoor

insofar as physiology is concerned, optimal operating condition is 60-65F, with low relative humidity (say 50% or lower). Anything higher, your body will have issue with shedding heat.

It's one of the reasons why I stay indoor these days: a nice trainer with a heavy flywheel simulates road feel very well, and I can easily hit my outdoor watts in a climate controlled condition, whereas i'd have to cool myself using an ice sock outdoors (not to mention that there's no road around where I can just pedal for 10 minutes uninterrupted)

Ttoc6

I keep my apt at 74 Degrees and roughly 50% humidity and I've got two fans. Outside it's hot and dry and smoky. In tthe winter (when I set some of my better numbers) I could get my apt down into the low 60's (but still dry). These felt like optimal conditions!

Today I did a zwift TT (for ****s and giggles) and came within a few watts of those 20 min numbers at the beginning of the year. funn.

topflightpro

I can consistently hit higher numbers on the trainer for efforts under 20s, but for longer efforts or FTP tests, I find my trainer numbers to be about 10-15 percent lower than on the road.

Hunter Allen did a video a few years ago explaining why your indoor numbers are lower. It has to do with cooling and inertia.

As for my shorter efforts being higher, someone explained it to me once, and it made sense at the time, but I cannot recall the details. I think it was something to do with the way you can throw your body weight into the bike on the trainer is greater than on the road because the bike doesn't deflect some of that.

Voodoo76

Hermes, I believe you have posted this in the past, a very interesting article. The take away I had from that regarding trainers, that aligns with past experience, is that flywheel effect really matters. And might matter more for some than others. I am on a par indoors to out on my current Kickr. Not always the case on previous trainers (Try riding some of the sad fan based stuff from 30 years ago). It might be interesting to note what those who are struggling maintaining power indoors are riding?