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Quick Aero Wheels Question

Old 11-29-08, 05:56 PM
  #1  
ridethecliche
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Quick Aero Wheels Question

So a lot of people on here use powertaps. It gets expensive to have a few powertap wheels for different applications, so I was wondering the following.

If you get an aero front wheel, then that wheel gives the biggest benefit since it's hitting the air first and without turbulence.

If you have a PT rear wheel and you go a reasonable rim depth (30mm) for the Al wheel, can you use a disc cover for races?

Are Discs/covers allowed in mass start races?

Thanks!
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Old 11-29-08, 06:34 PM
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cliche, you race in New England and you've never seen Paul Curley?? Shame on you

Yes you can race covers, though given you aren't Paul, I'm not sure what the response would be.
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Old 11-29-08, 06:42 PM
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I've seen atleast one or two guys do it in person, and atleast 1 person do it in CDR's videos.

I figured that this is the best setup for a broke mans aero setup. It'd save me a bunch of money if I was to do this, so...
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Old 11-29-08, 07:22 PM
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Aero on the rear has a much smaller impact than the front. My plan is to get an aero front for TTs and a cover for the rear. I'm probably going to build a new road front too, and just go with a KinLin 30 and fewer+aero spokes (running Deep-V 32h round spokes now).

I really wouldn't worry about it for road races until you get to the point that you're losing them by inches. I guess the first one you lose by inches, you'll be sending me a nasty-gram though...
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Old 11-29-08, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Aero on the rear has a much smaller impact than the front. My plan is to get an aero front for TTs and a cover for the rear. I'm probably going to build a new road front too, and just go with a KinLin 30 and fewer+aero spokes (running Deep-V 32h round spokes now).

I really wouldn't worry about it for road races until you get to the point that you're losing them by inches. I guess the first one you lose by inches, you'll be sending me a nasty-gram though...
Heh, I just replied to your other post with questions that are answered here.

Anything I lose by inches was because I didn't stick to someone elses wheel for long enough, or I didn't throw my bike right.

It's just the live.com thing has me riled up, since 30% off something used is a pretty good deal. I could get a used HED carbon clincher wheelset with AL brake surface for 550 bucks and then 30% off. Sure the rear had a cracked fairing, but it's repaired with epoxy and the fairing isn't structural anyway...
That's a pretty sweet deal...

I think I might just go with the more aero front, if I don't get a wheelset at a price I can really afford. Worst comes to worst, it'll be aero front and disc cover rear for the flat A races. I wonder how a disc cover does if it's windy out and you're descending
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Old 11-29-08, 09:05 PM
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pretty sure covers arn't mass-start legal. everyone would make fun of you anyways.
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Old 11-29-08, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Val23708 View Post
everyone would make fun of you anyways.
Who cares?
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Old 11-29-08, 09:11 PM
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How are you guys getting the whole 30% off deal at live.com? I can't get to eBay at all and the biggest discount I saw was for 15% on something I didn't want...I could get 2.5% from newegg on the the 1TB NAS I was looking at though.

Seriously what am I doing wrong? I am signed up and I do the live search for things I would think would turn up an eBay auction but they never do.....
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Old 11-29-08, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Val23708 View Post
pretty sure covers arn't mass-start legal.
It may be time to reread this. http://www.usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf
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Old 11-29-08, 09:35 PM
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I'm not sure why you would want to run a disc in a road race or crit. They add weight and corner like crap. I guess it might help a little in a break, but otherwise you would be better off with a standard rim. I ran a 38 mm front and 20 mm rear with the PT last year. I also had an 808 powertap wheel that I only ran in TT's and one crit where my other PT wheel was out of commission.
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Old 11-29-08, 09:58 PM
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Don't know if this is a good deal, but, they are new Zipps (select sort Z to A in sort by Vendor window)...
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Old 11-30-08, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by king-tony View Post
I'm not sure why you would want to run a disc in a road race or crit. They add weight and corner like crap. I guess it might help a little in a break, but otherwise you would be better off with a standard rim. I ran a 38 mm front and 20 mm rear with the PT last year. I also had an 808 powertap wheel that I only ran in TT's and one crit where my other PT wheel was out of commission.
Agreed.

From what I've learned, the front wheel matters a LOT more than the rear. I'm too broke to buy a good carbon wheelset, but I think I can afford a decent used front wheel for race only applications. Instead of the purported 15 watts, it'd probably save me 10-12, which is still better than nothing.

So if I don't find something that I can afford, I'll probably end up with a used 50mm carbon clincher for race only purposes. I'll use my 27mm neuvation in the rear, and call it a day.

That should be more than good enough. If I find something else good now or at some point down the line, I can get that too.
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Old 11-30-08, 06:16 AM
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^ride the cliche, are you a wesleyan student?
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Old 11-30-08, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
From what I've learned, the front wheel matters a LOT more than the rear.
I don't know what "a LOT" means to you, but a rear wheel is 75% as effective as a front. If a certain wheel lowers drag by 10 Watts in the front, it will lower it by 7.5 W if placed in the rear. That's been shown by John Cobb, Zipp, and many others.
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Old 11-30-08, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I don't know what "a LOT" means to you, but a rear wheel is 75% as effective as a front. If a certain wheel lowers drag by 10 Watts in the front, it will lower it by 7.5 W if placed in the rear. That's been shown by John Cobb, Zipp, and many others.
I misread what I originally read.

I read that statement to mean '75% of the aero effect comes from the front' instead of 'the rear is 75% as effective as the front.'

Thanks for the correction!

Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
^ride the cliche, are you a wesleyan student?
Quite possibly, yes. Are you here as well?
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Old 11-30-08, 10:44 AM
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No way i'd run a disc cover in any mass start race. They would add weight, subtract from handling, and any advantage gained would be miniscule. This whole aero thing is way overrated in crits and road races. I say just keep working on your engine(don't put the cart before the horse). Having said this, I think the aero stuff is incredibly important for time trials...duh! Get a good set of deep dish wheels for races and time trials. Use what you have now for training. You already have a power meter and a great race bike. You aren't that far off from having everything you need to race and train right up to the the elite level. From there...teams and sponsors would fill in the gaps with the fancy disc wheels and time-trial frames.
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Old 11-30-08, 11:12 AM
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These look like a nice set of wheels for a gran....

http://www.vueltausa.com/products/ro...rsa-carbon.htm

I also see alot of Vuelta stuff on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Vuelta-Team-...1%7C240%3A1308


http://cgi.ebay.com/WHEEL-FRONT-BIKE...3286.m20.l1116
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Old 11-30-08, 11:41 AM
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Those are all heavy and/or too expensive haha. I'll just race what I have.

I'm pretty sure that losing a race for me is more accounted for by the fact that I didn't have the legs or the ability, and not that I didn't have the wheels that were saving me 15 watts for the 5 minutes I was in a break. I spend most of my time hiding anyway...

Bleh.
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Old 11-30-08, 05:25 PM
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Hey guys,

I found something else I have a quick question on.

Lets look at 'relative savings' of different wheelsets.

A Zipp 202 wheelset is 32mm deep front and back, a 303 is 44mm, and a 404 wheelset is 58.

The 'wattage savings' are 14, 16, and 20 respectively. In addition, a 404 front and 808 (82mm) rear have a 21 watt saving! That's a difference of 1 watt for increasing rear rim depth by 16mm!

So if I was moving from a 27mm wheelset (lets say it has a 10 watt saving over a box section), to a 50mm aero wheelset, I'd see about a 7ish watt difference for a wheelset. I'm assuming that the 50mm wheelset I'd buy is more like a 303 since zipps are engineered 'better' than a generic 50mm wheelset.

Does that sound reasonable at all?
If anything, this really makes me reconsider how big of an advantage aero wheels really are. The difference is there, but the cost/watt benefit isn't anywhere as good as I had thought it would be.

(Source: http://www.spinlitecycling.com/ZippAeroEdgeFlyer.pdf)

Asgelle?

Last edited by ridethecliche; 11-30-08 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 11-30-08, 10:49 PM
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Yeah, I agree in general. They're most likely comparing to a Ksyrium to get that big of a difference on the low end.

It's tough to prioritize these things. There's no question that these wheels slow you down less than conventional wheels. The question is, what's the impact in a race? Tough to say, as it could be the difference between winning and losing. So, just get really strong and win by more than that
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Old 11-30-08, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Yeah, I agree in general. They're most likely comparing to a Ksyrium to get that big of a difference on the low end.

It's tough to prioritize these things. There's no question that these wheels slow you down less than conventional wheels. The question is, what's the impact in a race? Tough to say, as it could be the difference between winning and losing. So, just get really strong and win by more than that
I like that answer. Hopefully my anal retentiveness will allow me to move on.

I wanted to save and get a PM when I upgraded to the 4's. I got one as a gift around when I upgraded. I figured I'd spend that money on wheels. Might as well save it and spend it on races. That way I can do the next thing I wanted, which is get to the 3's and then buy zoot wheels

This ebay/live.com sale makes it so hard to pass up on it though. I'll probably end up with something if I feel convinced enough!
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Old 11-30-08, 11:58 PM
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Regarding aerodynamics, how much of an advantage do you really get from bladed spokes (vs. round spokes)?
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Old 12-01-08, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by arexjay View Post
Regarding aerodynamics, how much of an advantage do you really get from bladed spokes (vs. round spokes)?
Depends. More with eliptical spokes than bladed spokes. There's a zipp pdf floating around somewhere.

The round spokes had a much greater wake than any of them, though flat bladed spokes didn't do as well in crosswinds if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 12-01-08, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
There's a zipp pdf floating around somewhere.
Here's the paper, put out by Zipp, on the importance of spoke shape:
http://www.zipp.com/_media/pdfs/tech...spokeshape.pdf
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