Armstrong Forced To Scrap Plans For Independent Drug-Testing Program
02-12-09, 09:37 AM
#26
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^^ is that because plasma volume increases?
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02-12-09, 10:19 AM
#27
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Interestingly, my empirical evidence disagrees.
2008 - 47.5 17-20 hrs/week on the bike.
2004 - 45.3 (decent shape, running 15-20 mi/week, 190lbs, would classify myself is "in shape" at this time)
1998 - 44.7 (no working out at all, in fact I was 220lbs at the time)
1995 - 47.0 (just post boot camp)
So.. n=1, and completely ignorant of the typical accuracy of the labwork, etc... it's just the numbers.
VW
2008 - 47.5 17-20 hrs/week on the bike.
2004 - 45.3 (decent shape, running 15-20 mi/week, 190lbs, would classify myself is "in shape" at this time)
1998 - 44.7 (no working out at all, in fact I was 220lbs at the time)
1995 - 47.0 (just post boot camp)
So.. n=1, and completely ignorant of the typical accuracy of the labwork, etc... it's just the numbers.
VW
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02-12-09, 11:06 AM
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02-12-09, 12:45 PM
#31
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[Rumormongering]Lance has discovered there is no way he can be competitive without pharm-team help, and so he decides to scrap the idea and show up strong instead at the TdC[/Rumormongering]
I respect the guy as an athlete, but how difficult are the logistics really? Get a test, and put up a frickin' PDF of the results. The guy is the "most tested athlete on the planet" right? So how tough can it be to have some blood drawn every so often and post the results. Garmin seems to manage (I believe) as well as posting power data with Saris. Basso posts his SRM files. Lance? *tumbleweeds*
sorry, I am just talking out of my butt, but this is disappointing.
I respect the guy as an athlete, but how difficult are the logistics really? Get a test, and put up a frickin' PDF of the results. The guy is the "most tested athlete on the planet" right? So how tough can it be to have some blood drawn every so often and post the results. Garmin seems to manage (I believe) as well as posting power data with Saris. Basso posts his SRM files. Lance? *tumbleweeds*
sorry, I am just talking out of my butt, but this is disappointing.
Power data, SRM files, different bag of fish. Those are just numbers. No legal implications - just your basic wee-wee measuring sticks posted on an internet site. Who the hell knows or even cares if those are accurate?
Hemocrit numbers means blood drawn, chain of custody, independent evaluation and control of the samples, etc. Expensive and logistically challenging. Apparently too much so.
Ask yourself this: if you saw some blood numbers on Armstrong's website that showed him winning the TDF in fine fashion while not doping, would you believe them at face value? Or would you immediately latch onto any and all news reports and investigations into broken chain of custodies, mishandled samples, or skipped tests due to impossible logistics?
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02-12-09, 12:48 PM
#32
Senior Member
Your attitude is the perfect example of why he's scrapping this program. If the program is not going to be perfect, then why do it? If logistics demands a skipped month, and that skipped month only adds fuel to the doping fire, then why do it?
Screw it all, provide less data to the naysayers, and just train your ass off. I'd take that position too, if I were Mr. Armstrong.
Screw it all, provide less data to the naysayers, and just train your ass off. I'd take that position too, if I were Mr. Armstrong.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-12-09, 01:02 PM
#33
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Your attitude is the perfect example of why he's scrapping this program. If the program is not going to be perfect, then why do it? If logistics demands a skipped month, and that skipped month only adds fuel to the doping fire, then why do it?
Screw it all, provide less data to the naysayers, and just train your ass off. I'd take that position too, if I were Mr. Armstrong.
Screw it all, provide less data to the naysayers, and just train your ass off. I'd take that position too, if I were Mr. Armstrong.
02-12-09, 01:07 PM
#34
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... then Gunderson shouldn't have set himself up in this tangled web by ballyhooing his "transparency" upon his second coming...
02-12-09, 01:11 PM
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Pharmstrong came forward and told the world he was volunteering himself for a state of the art anti-doping program to prove hes clean. At that point one would assume that every high level detail would have already been worked out (money, logistics, etc).
02-12-09, 01:25 PM
#36
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Devil's in the details. Sometimes what looks like will work from a high level gets killed at the lower levels. Sorry he couldn't make you happy and all, but at this point, he's probably wanting to get past all that administrative crap and just get his hours in on the bike.
Perhaps he came to the realization that 1) you cannot prove a negative (i.e., it's impossible to prove that he isn't doping) and 2) naysayers aren't going to take anything at face value - and if you can't please the naysayers with your best effort, then why put out any effort at all?
The Lance haters are just gonna have to eat their shorts on this one. He's still doing what he wants to do, and they are still powerless to have any influence on him. Sucks to be a Lance hater.
Perhaps he came to the realization that 1) you cannot prove a negative (i.e., it's impossible to prove that he isn't doping) and 2) naysayers aren't going to take anything at face value - and if you can't please the naysayers with your best effort, then why put out any effort at all?
The Lance haters are just gonna have to eat their shorts on this one. He's still doing what he wants to do, and they are still powerless to have any influence on him. Sucks to be a Lance hater.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-12-09, 01:27 PM
#37
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"Chain of custody", the magic words that makes the logistics so difficult. Would anyone believe the results of any of the tests if there was a break in the chain of custody? If you believe him guilty of doping, then why would you believe some numbers he put on his website? He's not going to go through all the trouble unless it actually benefits his public perception in some way.
Power data, SRM files, different bag of fish. Those are just numbers. No legal implications - just your basic wee-wee measuring sticks posted on an internet site. Who the hell knows or even cares if those are accurate?
Hemocrit numbers means blood drawn, chain of custody, independent evaluation and control of the samples, etc. Expensive and logistically challenging. Apparently too much so.
Ask yourself this: if you saw some blood numbers on Armstrong's website that showed him winning the TDF in fine fashion while not doping, would you believe them at face value? Or would you immediately latch onto any and all news reports and investigations into broken chain of custodies, mishandled samples, or skipped tests due to impossible logistics?
Power data, SRM files, different bag of fish. Those are just numbers. No legal implications - just your basic wee-wee measuring sticks posted on an internet site. Who the hell knows or even cares if those are accurate?
Hemocrit numbers means blood drawn, chain of custody, independent evaluation and control of the samples, etc. Expensive and logistically challenging. Apparently too much so.
Ask yourself this: if you saw some blood numbers on Armstrong's website that showed him winning the TDF in fine fashion while not doping, would you believe them at face value? Or would you immediately latch onto any and all news reports and investigations into broken chain of custodies, mishandled samples, or skipped tests due to impossible logistics?
I agree, numbers are numbers. Anything can be manipulated, and so who really knows? I just think it poor form to claim something before he had his facts straight. Reminds me a bit of the advice he gave Floyd after the TdF. Something to the effect of not talking to the press until you are sure of what you are going to say. "I am racing the tour" but wait "I am not racing the tour because of security and the Giro" to "I am racing the tour but not to win" to "We will see who the strongest rider is at tour time." I am ranting here, but the guy is smart, and his back and forth is unusual from him (in my mind) and frankly, not of the quality I would expect from him.
02-12-09, 01:27 PM
#38
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When lost, I too retrace my steps...
02-12-09, 01:37 PM
#39
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I don't see it as the answer, no. Unfortunately there is never a way to do this in a foolproof manner. What is he going to do? Send a film crew to follow the blood viles to the lab and film them being tested, then post that on youtube? Who si to say it couldn't be edited? I know that is ludicrous and over-simplified, but there is no way to 100% prove that chain of custody is uninterupted. But here is the thing - by making a public statement that "I am going to do something" to be more transparent and then not doing it begs the question, does he have a reason for being LESS transparent.
I agree, numbers are numbers. Anything can be manipulated, and so who really knows? I just think it poor form to claim something before he had his facts straight. Reminds me a bit of the advice he gave Floyd after the TdF. Something to the effect of not talking to the press until you are sure of what you are going to say. "I am racing the tour" but wait "I am not racing the tour because of security and the Giro" to "I am racing the tour but not to win" to "We will see who the strongest rider is at tour time." I am ranting here, but the guy is smart, and his back and forth is unusual from him (in my mind) and frankly, not of the quality I would expect from him.
I agree, numbers are numbers. Anything can be manipulated, and so who really knows? I just think it poor form to claim something before he had his facts straight. Reminds me a bit of the advice he gave Floyd after the TdF. Something to the effect of not talking to the press until you are sure of what you are going to say. "I am racing the tour" but wait "I am not racing the tour because of security and the Giro" to "I am racing the tour but not to win" to "We will see who the strongest rider is at tour time." I am ranting here, but the guy is smart, and his back and forth is unusual from him (in my mind) and frankly, not of the quality I would expect from him.
The basic problem with all this is that people expect things of him. He just wants to race a bike and promote his cancer cause. Lower your expectations of the man himself, and you won't get so emotionally invested in every proclamation he utters. He's just a guy trying to do the best with his life that he can, just like all of us. He has no duties and responsibilities to the public at large other than the ones he personally accepts for himself.
Personally, I think this is just a dry run for next year. I would not be surprised at all to see a new US based team called "Livestrong" in the tour next year with their bumblebee kits and Trek bikes. He's just out this year to test his legs and see if he is still race worthy. He gains some publicity with his comeback this year, launches his new team next year to promote cancer awareness or whatever, and hopefully he can raise some money for some cancer research through all this. This year he just needs Euro-pro racing miles in his legs. Giro, TDF, doesn't matter. Perhaps he originally picked the Giro to lower expectations of his performance, then switch to the TDF when he found his training to be coming along nicely and ahead of schedule. Ultimately he is just a racer like you or I (but more so), choosing his "A" races based on his expectations of his abilities in the year.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 02-12-09 at 01:40 PM.
02-12-09, 01:37 PM
#40
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Devil's in the details. Sometimes what looks like will work from a high level gets killed at the lower levels. Sorry he couldn't make you happy and all, but at this point, he's probably wanting to get past all that administrative crap and just get his hours in on the bike.
Perhaps he came to the realization that 1) you cannot prove a negative (i.e., it's impossible to prove that he isn't doping) and 2) naysayers aren't going to take anything at face value - and if you can't please the naysayers with your best effort, then why put out any effort at all?
The Lance haters are just gonna have to eat their shorts on this one. He's still doing what he wants to do, and they are still powerless to have any influence on him. Sucks to be a Lance hater.
Perhaps he came to the realization that 1) you cannot prove a negative (i.e., it's impossible to prove that he isn't doping) and 2) naysayers aren't going to take anything at face value - and if you can't please the naysayers with your best effort, then why put out any effort at all?
The Lance haters are just gonna have to eat their shorts on this one. He's still doing what he wants to do, and they are still powerless to have any influence on him. Sucks to be a Lance hater.
Lance didnt say #1 or #2.. Its what you are saying....
02-12-09, 01:41 PM
#41
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You can even ship packages while maintaining chain of custody. All you need to do is apply custody seals to the outside of the package / cooler. While they don't turn the cooler into a safe, they provide evidence of tampering or lack thereof.
02-12-09, 01:41 PM
#42
Senior Member
Lance didnt say #1 or #2.. Its what you are saying....
"realization"...
Reading comprehension is your friend. I am allowed to speculate to the same extent you are.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 02-12-09 at 01:48 PM.
02-12-09, 01:47 PM
#43
Senior Member
Maintaining Chain of Custody isn't as hard as you guys are making it out to be. It is done every day on thousands of samples. It doesn't have to be perfect, all that is required is for a "reasonable person" to deem it sufficient.
You can even ship packages while maintaining chain of custody. All you need to do is apply custody seals to the outside of the package / cooler. While they don't turn the cooler into a safe, they provide evidence of tampering or lack thereof.
You can even ship packages while maintaining chain of custody. All you need to do is apply custody seals to the outside of the package / cooler. While they don't turn the cooler into a safe, they provide evidence of tampering or lack thereof.
And if it cannot be perfect, if the naysayers are just going to harp on every tiny detail of imperfection and re-interpret all the data issued in this program in a hostile manner (a perfect example is already in this thread), then why expend the money and effort just to give his naysayers more ammunition in the public relation battle? Stupid move to suggest the program in the first place. Correct move to scrap it as the stated goals of the program are impossible to carry out. He was banking on some goodwill amongst his public examiners which will probably never materialize, even after he is in his grave.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
02-12-09, 01:48 PM
#44
out walking the earth
Lance said he was going to do something. He's not doing it. Therefore he's full of crap. Same as if anyone else said they would do something and didn't do it. Just wait for what they say about Obama when the economy is still in the toilet next christmas. If you get the big press, you get the big criticisms as well. Those are the vissitudes of life.
02-12-09, 01:53 PM
#45
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in the wake of anti-doping expert don catlin parting ways with lance armstrong, word has come from the armstrong camp that the seven-time winner of the tour de france has enlisted rasmus damsgaard to oversee his testing program for 2009.
02-12-09, 01:53 PM
#46
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In this case, because the chain of custody is examined in the court of public perception, it has to be perfect, which is cannot be, obviously.
And if it cannot be perfect, if the naysayers are just going to harp on every tiny detail of imperfection and re-interpret all the data issued in this program in a hostile manner (a perfect example is already in this thread), then why expend the money and effort just to give his naysayers more ammunition in the public relation battle? Stupid move to suggest the program in the first place. Correct move to scrap it as the stated goals of the program are impossible to carry out. He was banking on some goodwill amongst his public examiners which will probably never materialize, even after he is in his grave.
And if it cannot be perfect, if the naysayers are just going to harp on every tiny detail of imperfection and re-interpret all the data issued in this program in a hostile manner (a perfect example is already in this thread), then why expend the money and effort just to give his naysayers more ammunition in the public relation battle? Stupid move to suggest the program in the first place. Correct move to scrap it as the stated goals of the program are impossible to carry out. He was banking on some goodwill amongst his public examiners which will probably never materialize, even after he is in his grave.
02-12-09, 01:53 PM
#47
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02-12-09, 01:55 PM
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Lance said he was going to do something. He's not doing it. Therefore he's full of crap. Same as if anyone else said they would do something and didn't do it. Just wait for what they say about Obama when the economy is still in the toilet next christmas. If you get the big press, you get the big criticisms as well. Those are the vissitudes of life.
02-12-09, 01:56 PM
#50
Senior Member
Lance said he was going to do something. He's not doing it. Therefore he's full of crap. Same as if anyone else said they would do something and didn't do it. Just wait for what they say about Obama when the economy is still in the toilet next christmas. If you get the big press, you get the big criticisms as well. Those are the vissitudes [sic] of life.
Nobody asks for the big press, most of the time it just comes. And just because the criticisms are big, doesn't mean they are justified. Your's are the words of a bully beating up a boy because he has glasses because he happened to develop nearsightedness early in life. Those are the vicissitudes of life, right?
And funny that cycle where it's the people with the big criticisms that generate the big press for the guy seeking to make use of the press platform given to him by those with the big criticisms.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter