Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

ToC-No radios, much better racing...

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

ToC-No radios, much better racing...

Old 02-16-09, 12:08 PM
  #1  
tonyzackery
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver, BC
Posts: 288

Bikes: Giant Aero Road Bike, Quintana Roo TT bike, Airborne crit bike, Leader track bike, System6 in build stage

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
ToC-No radios, much better racing...

IMO the way it should be; not as contrived, not as orchestrated, more spontaneity...Didn't watch the stage, but reports indicate some chaos for the chasing teams without the services of their GPS-like technology. Hope they have more blackouts in the future. Kinda makes things much more interesting...
tonyzackery is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 12:13 PM
  #2  
enjoi07
Senior Member
 
enjoi07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: san diego
Posts: 2,970

Bikes: custom caad9

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
yea, kinda sad they were all pretty clueless with out there little radios eh..
enjoi07 is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 12:35 PM
  #3  
Dubbayoo
Senior Member
 
Dubbayoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7,681

Bikes: Pedal Force QS3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
They should have one radio-free grand tour and a couple classics every year just as a throwback event.
Dubbayoo is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 12:35 PM
  #4  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
IMO the way it should be; not as contrived, not as orchestrated, more spontaneity...Didn't watch the stage, but reports indicate some chaos for the chasing teams without the services of their GPS-like technology. Hope they have more blackouts in the future. Kinda makes things much more interesting...
Yeah, like Cat 4 racing where they never let the break get out of sight. The problem was with race radio, not the teams. No one knew the gap to the break and so no one, not team directors, team leaders, or individual riders could figure out how to chase. Add to that the fact they weren't sure how long the race was going to be and you get no strategy, no tactics, just blind luck. I'm really not a big fan of luck deciding the outcome.
asgelle is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 01:39 PM
  #5  
tonyzackery
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver, BC
Posts: 288

Bikes: Giant Aero Road Bike, Quintana Roo TT bike, Airborne crit bike, Leader track bike, System6 in build stage

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Yeah, like Cat 4 racing where they never let the break get out of sight. The problem was with race radio, not the teams. No one knew the gap to the break and so no one, not team directors, team leaders, or individual riders could figure out how to chase. Add to that the fact they weren't sure how long the race was going to be and you get no strategy, no tactics, just blind luck. I'm really not a big fan of luck deciding the outcome.
Yeah, you're right - Mancebo won simply because of "blind luck". Come to think of it - the typical early morning break; break gets caught by peloton at 3k; attacks off the front; final bunch sprint to the finish, is much more exciting...
tonyzackery is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 01:58 PM
  #6  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
Yeah, you're right - Mancebo won simply because of "blind luck"
What would you call it? The field doesn't know the gap and so has no idea when to start chasing and how hard. They make a wild guess and work off that. Then the time they have to catch keeps shifting and ends up being 10 miles shorter than originally thought. It's obvious Astana was pacing to catch before the finish (probably before the last lap where time was going to be taken at one point), but either the location for GC time was changed, or they learned about it too late, and sat up. So Mancebo wins because in an information vacuum success comes down to a guess. I'd say that is equivalent to blind luck.

I've never seen even the most anti-rider-radio advocates propose doing away with time splits entirely. You might want to check some of the coverage comments. See how many people are mad about not knowing the time gaps as they watched. Under your proposal, we'd have to do without that as well since if the information is released to the viewer, then the DS's will just have it relayed to them.
asgelle is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 02:08 PM
  #7  
tonyzackery
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver, BC
Posts: 288

Bikes: Giant Aero Road Bike, Quintana Roo TT bike, Airborne crit bike, Leader track bike, System6 in build stage

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
What would you call it? The field doesn't know the gap and so has no idea when to start chasing and how hard. They make a wild guess and work off that. Then the time they have to catch keeps shifting and ends up being 10 miles shorter than originally thought. It's obvious Astana was pacing to catch before the finish (probably before the last lap where time was going to be taken at one point), but either the location for GC time was changed, or they learned about it too late, and sat up. So Mancebo wins because in an information vacuum success comes down to a guess. I'd say that is equivalent to blind luck.

I've never seen even the most anti-rider-radio advocates propose doing away with time splits entirely. You might want to check some of the coverage comments. See how many people are mad about not knowing the time gaps as they watched. Under your proposal, we'd have to do without that as well since if the information is released to the viewer, then the DS's will just have it relayed to them.
Pump your brakes, pal; did I say "...and do away with time splits too"????? I'm of the school that strong riders "make their (blind) luck"...As you see it, I suppose even you could have won the stage considering the fortunes of those bestowed with "blind luck"...

I'm done...carry on...
tonyzackery is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 02:19 PM
  #8  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Originally Posted by tonyzackery View Post
Pump your brakes, pal; did I say "...and do away with time splits too"?????
In your original post you wrote, "Hope they have more blackouts in the future." The only blackout that had any meaningful effect on the race was the loss of radio tour. Teams lose their interteam radios all the time, but that has almost no effect as riders can always drop back and get the information directly from the DS.
asgelle is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 02:42 PM
  #9  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,083
Mentioned: 154 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Take away their radios and the self proclaimed "best stage racing team in the world" turns into a bunch of whiners who sat on their hands for most of the race looking at each other. "We don't know what to do! Should we chase or not?"

There's a break up the road and you don't know how far. What do you THINK you should do?

My favorite comment:

Leipheimer: "At the end it was Chris Horner... we have to really thank him, because he was the one to be really astute and hit the gas. We started panicking and tried to ask the other teams to help, and they didn't get it!"

Uh Levi, maybe they did. Maybe you didn't. You don't think there was a lot of grinning at the back of that chase group? "Pull through and help, uh no, no thank you. I wouldn't want to get in the way of the best stage racing team in the world".

Karma.

Horner got it. Not Lance or Johan or Levi. Horner knows how to race. From a ProCycling interview with Marco Pinotti:

One of the riders I like the most and who Ive learnt a lot from is Chris Horner. Hes a bit weird but hes great at reading races and knows how to ride.

Mancebo's win was a wily piece of work from a strong veteran rider. He knew that conditions would hinder a chase and that communications were spotty at best. This is a guy who's stood on the podium of the Vuelta, won the white jersey and finished a spot off the podium in the TDF, and was the Spanish national TT champ.

Yeah, he probably lucked into all those too.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 02:51 PM
  #10  
bdcheung
Carpe Diem
 
bdcheung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Posts: 13,149

Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Apparently for most of the race, the commisaires had not communicated that the time splits for GC purposes would be taken after the riders crossed the finish line on the first circuit.

That may have had something to do with it, too.
__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
bdcheung is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 02:52 PM
  #11  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Take away their radios and the self proclaimed "best stage racing team in the world" turns into a bunch of whiners who sat on their hands for most of the race looking at each other. "We don't know what to do! Should we chase or not?"
So, all the major team sports soccer*, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, adjust their strategy at the end of the game based on the time remaining and the score. But for some reason, people here are advocating keeping cyclists ignorant of important information to allow development of a winning strategy and believe that leads to better racing?

I can see it now: your football team has the ball on their own 35 yard line. They trail by between 2 and 21 points or maybe they lead by that amount; no one knows. There's something between 30 seconds and 14 minutes to left in the game. What play do you call?

*Note soccer used to have undefined injury time at the end of a half, but that was done away with and now the referee has to state the amount of time left.
asgelle is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 02:58 PM
  #12  
bdcheung
Carpe Diem
 
bdcheung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Posts: 13,149

Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
So, all the major team sports soccer*, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, adjust their strategy at the end of the game based on the time remaining and the score. But for some reason, people here are advocating keeping cyclists ignorant of important information to allow development of a winning strategy and believe that leads to better racing?

I can see it now: your football team has the ball on their own 35 yard line. They trail by between 2 and 21 points or maybe they lead by that amount; no one knows. There's something between 30 seconds and 14 minutes to left in the game. What play do you call?

*Note soccer used to have undefined injury time at the end of a half, but that was done away with and now the referee has to state the amount of time left.
That's a ****ty analogy that compares apples to motor oil. Your football example would be better suited for a points-based competition, like KoM or sprints.

You'd be better off talking about removing race radios from NASCAR so that drivers don't know their split times compared to the lead car. Or what lap the lead car is on. Oh, and they couldn't tell their crew chief what they needed until they actually got to the pit.

that might make NASCAR interesting.
__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
bdcheung is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 03:03 PM
  #13  
3MTA3
★ ★ ★
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,069
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
bobby knight often talks about how the 3 point line ruined the game of basketball & i often hear many old-schoolers say the same about radios & racing. part of me agrees with both, however i'm somewhat young & only know both sports with both factors.
3MTA3 is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 03:04 PM
  #14  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
That's a ****ty analogy that compares apples to motor oil. Your football example would be better suited for a points-based competition, like KoM or sprints.
With radio tour down, the riders didn't know what the gap to the leader was (i.e., the score of the game), and didn't know when the finish time would be taken (i.e., how much longer they had to play). It looks pretty close to me. If you don't see it, well I'll have to find a way to live.
asgelle is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 03:10 PM
  #15  
tonyzackery
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA/Vancouver, BC
Posts: 288

Bikes: Giant Aero Road Bike, Quintana Roo TT bike, Airborne crit bike, Leader track bike, System6 in build stage

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
One last tidbit...At Burnaby Velodrome, on occasion they run a race called "Unknown Distance". The best racing you can imagine...
tonyzackery is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 03:13 PM
  #16  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,083
Mentioned: 154 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
With radio tour down, the riders didn't know what the gap to the leader was (i.e., the score of the game), and didn't know when the finish time would be taken (i.e., how much longer they had to play). It looks pretty close to me. If you don't see it, well I'll have to find a way to live.
No idea how they even managed to have races before radios. I guess they just rode around in circles till it got dark.

Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
So, all the major team sports soccer*, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, adjust their strategy
Exactly. Adjust your strategy. You radio isn't working. Adjust your strategy. You star quarterback broke his arm. Adjust your strategy.

Adjust your strategy


I don't give a flying about radios. I just think it's freaking hysterical that it took Horner to tell all that high priced talent that they might not want to sit around picking their noses. Calling Mancebo lucky is ridiculous. Calling Astana confused and panicked is just quoting their team leader.

Apparently the tactical genius's kryptonite is good old rain.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 04:40 PM
  #17  
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dude did you even watch the race? They had race radios and updates from the team cars.
wfrogge is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 05:43 PM
  #18  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
No idea how they even managed to have races before radios. I guess they just rode around in circles till it got dark.
They also ran Grand Tours on fixed gears until someone realized there was a better way. My guess is they started giving time gaps before the introduction of the modern derailleur. So if wer're going back in time, let's go back all the way. No gears, no quick releases, no assistance. Man that forge.
asgelle is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 06:50 PM
  #19  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,083
Mentioned: 154 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
They also ran Grand Tours on fixed gears until someone realized there was a better way. My guess is they started giving time gaps before the introduction of the modern derailleur. So if wer're going back in time, let's go back all the way. No gears, no quick releases, no assistance. Man that forge.
Not surprisingly, you missed the point completely. Here it is again:

ADJUST YOUR STRATEGY

And again:

I don't give a flying tuna about radios. Don't care. But if a piece of technology fails you

ADJUST YOUR STRATEGY

If a team with the biggest budget in professional cycling doesn't know what to do if their radios stop working, that's hysterical.

You're saying they had no idea what was going on, how far it was to the finish, or even what state they might have been in.

Cripes, I KNEW what was going on, including the time gaps, and I was 2000 miles away.

ADJUST YOUR STRATEGY

OK, say your sooooo new school that you forgot how to actually race your bike. There's a break up the road and you don't know how hard to pedal unless someone spoon feeds you a time gap. (Heaven forbid you just chase and close it down. )

Hey, that thing in your pocket is called a cell phone. You got one of those right? I bet they might even have one that has access to this thing called the Internet. It's a series of tubes that you can get information from. Like this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2009.../california091

Or say you had one of those cricket phones they give to geriatrics. You might KNOW someone who has access to this Internet thingy. And I've driven over those roads for a lot of years. There's even some places where you could stop and they might let you use the phone. And the restroom.

Of course you MIGHT just want to

RACE YOUR BIKE

like Horner.



Really, their whining is an embarrassment. So is calling a 100 mile solo win "lucky". At least Levi was gracious in recognizing Mancebo's ride.

In closing, in case you missed it:

adjust your strategy, or hire Chris Horner
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 02-16-09, 06:52 PM
  #20  
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 3,641
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
I don't give a flying tuna about radios.
Given the title of this thread perhaps you should move along then.
asgelle is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 11:10 AM
  #21  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I haven't been watching the coverage because I was traveling and racing all weekend. Can someone summarize what happened with the radios?
umd is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 11:15 AM
  #22  
bdcheung
Carpe Diem
 
bdcheung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Posts: 13,149

Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Bad weather meant no race radio from the commissaires - none of the team directors could get race info over the official "race radio".
__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
bdcheung is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 11:19 AM
  #23  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've seen a lot of posts about not having the time splits... was there still the moto guy with the chalkboard? And how could they not know how much race there was left? Don't at least some of them they have bike computers?
umd is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 11:21 AM
  #24  
pjcampbell
fair weather cyclist
 
pjcampbell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Green Mountains
Posts: 1,337

Bikes: Colnago c50

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
are radios legal in cat3?
pjcampbell is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 11:24 AM
  #25  
bdcheung
Carpe Diem
 
bdcheung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Posts: 13,149

Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Here are some snippets from Johan's twitter (only primary source I can find):

We're having some difficulties with phone network. 40 miles into the stage. 3 leaders with around 10 minutes on the main pack.

The information over the official race radio is COMPLETELY messed up. Really confusing. #atoc

On the last climb of the day. Radio Tour gives us all kinds of different information. That definitely needs to improve. #atoc





So it sounds like "radio tour" was spotty, inconsistent, and confusing.
__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
bdcheung is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.