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3-minute all-out CP test

Old 04-20-09, 03:29 PM
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3-minute all-out CP test

Well, I tried the 3' all-out CP test today.

First off, freaking OUCH. This is probably the most pain I've ever been in while still on the bike. There's this point at 1:50-2:00 where I was getting REALLY uncomfortable, slowing, so I stood to get back on top of it. Well, my legs weren't there, and I almost fell on my top tube. So I sat back down and punished my legs for letting me down. At about 2:15, it got a little easier again (not more powerful, just less painful).

I haven't been able to download the data yet, but I think I probably leveled off around 360W at the end. I was surprised to be still doing pretty well (380-390) at 2:15. Sure enough though, it faded for a bit more, then leveled off (again, just from my glances at the 10s averaging on my PT).

So, 360W CP... my MAP is 500W, which would indicate 360W to 385W FTP. In my own testing, my best guess was 350-355W FTP, which would mean a CP around 340-345W? I dunno, either this test might be a bit high, or I'm a wimp when I do threshold work and have been shooting low with my FTP.

I do have high confidence that I burned through my AWC during this test though. That near collapse out of the saddle was a strange experience. Also, I did two 1' intervals at 80% of max (650W), before the test. Sort of for warmup, sort of for some training.

Graph coming later tonight.

Good test, but holy crapy it's tough.
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Old 04-20-09, 03:33 PM
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Dude, your FTP is like 110w more than mine.
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Old 04-20-09, 03:50 PM
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45 seconds-3 minute cp tests BLOW. all i want to do is vomit afterward.
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Old 04-20-09, 03:57 PM
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time for a 40 km TT.
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Old 04-20-09, 05:40 PM
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So the point is to bust your balls all the way to the end and the power that you end at is equal to your ftp? ugh, that sucks.
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Old 04-20-09, 05:41 PM
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Looking at this:

3-min All Out CP Test

How exactly do you do this test? All out from the beginning (almost a sprint) or just try to keep an average of x-watts?
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Old 04-20-09, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
time for a 40 km TT.
I'd be a lot more excited about such a ride if I had a TT bike...

Originally Posted by Apus^2 View Post
So the point is to bust your balls all the way to the end and the power that you end at is equal to your ftp?
correct

Originally Posted by Apus^2 View Post
ugh, that sucks.
correct

Originally Posted by kukusz View Post
Looking at this:

3-min All Out CP Test

How exactly do you do this test? All out from the beginning (almost a sprint) or just try to keep an average of x-watts?
I tried to go all-out from the beginning, but my legs seem to know when I'm tricking them. My first minute was only 631W, which would be "ok" for a 1' interval, but clearly not all-out. I did sprints yesterday, and had already done two 1' intervals today around 650W, so my AWC had already taken a reasonable hit.

That's the cool thing about this test, I don't think you need to be 100% fresh like you would for a 60' test. It also didn't seem to mess me up too bad. I was holding 330W on the way home without pain or suffering. Legs actually feel ok -- and they sure as hell wouldn't with a 60' test.

But, yeah, it's still the toughest thing I think I've done on the bike, and I can take some pain. This is tougher than I thought it would be.
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Old 04-20-09, 05:54 PM
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Ok, so the data.

My final 15 seconds averaged 355W, which is exactly where I'd set my FTP in WKO+. This is a DAMNed fine test. To. The. Watt.

The final 30s, I go up to 368W. I clearly hadn't leveled off yet. I think it's better to approach this test visually than by picking a static number of samples to average. Most riders probably would level off for the full 30s, but I think I have a lot more AWC than most riders.

Here's the chart (that dip is a right-hand corner I had to take -- it didn't matter much):
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Old 04-20-09, 05:55 PM
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I don't think the 3 minute CP test is 1:1 with FTP. My 5 minute CP much higher than what I could sustain at a one hour level.
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Old 04-20-09, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Ok, so the data.

My final 15 seconds averaged 355W, which is exactly where I'd set my FTP in WKO+. This is a DAMNed fine test. To. The. Watt.

The final 30s, I go up to 368W. I clearly hadn't leveled off yet. I think it's better to approach this test visually than by picking a static number of samples to average. Most riders probably would level off for the full 30s, but I think I have a lot more AWC than most riders.

Here's the chart (that dip is a right-hand corner I had to take -- it didn't matter much):
Nicely done.

Now you should calculate the total area above CP...
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Old 04-20-09, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
I don't think the 3 minute CP test is 1:1 with FTP. My 5 minute CP much higher than what I could sustain at a one hour level.
Well, this is different than a 3' CP test, sorry for the mis-wording in the thread title. This is a 3-minute all-out-every-pedal-stroke test. Similar to how I test 1' power. Zero pacing. Every pedal stroke is as hard as possible. My pain curve up above, is almost flat, but has a bit of a peak at 1:50, where I saw a dark tunnel with a dim light at the end of it.

My average power over the 3 minutes was only 470W. My 3-minute power (CP3) is probably around 540W right now, also way over my FTP.

I don't think going all-out from the beginning is not ideal for any test over around 2 minutes. Above that, and you really need to pace it somewhat. So, I could hit 540W with smart pacing (hard start, then settle in).

The key here is to burn through all your anaerobic work capacity, and not really care about the shape of that curve too much, but just make sure you knock it out of there as quickly as possible.

Then, you just look at the end of the graph, where it's level (probably the last 15-30 seconds).

Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
Nicely done.

Now you should calculate the total area above CP...
Thanks.

Umm. Hang on.
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Old 04-20-09, 06:48 PM
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Ok, I took the 3' sample in .csv. Added up all the positive Watt differences (W - 355, where W > 355), and multiplied by 1.26 (seconds/sample). For each sample, that gives me an area of Watts * Seconds. So, that would be J/s * s = J, right?


21,753J

Sounds really low to me.

Without the - 355 (just total Watts), it's 78,800J, so that's aerobic + anaerobic. I guess that's correct, because WKO+ shows me at 84,000J for the 3' effort, and that's counting the readings below 355W (so it should be higher).

EDIT: yeah, the method checks out, because if I add all samples * 1.26, I get 84,781J, which is pretty much the same as what WKO+ is telling me.

Last edited by waterrockets; 04-20-09 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 04-20-09, 06:50 PM
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Did you subtract CP from each value?

It's the integral between P(t) and y=360W curves.

*edit*

Nevermind

Last edited by Enthalpic; 04-20-09 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 04-20-09, 06:56 PM
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Could you do the area under curve analysis for one of your one minute tests to compare?
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Old 04-20-09, 07:11 PM
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The 1' test from last month, was 806W. Assuming CP at a lower 350W back then, that comes out to 27,577J spent above 350W. At the current 355W CP estimate, I'm seeing 27,275J (not a big difference).
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Old 04-20-09, 07:22 PM
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I think there's a factor of a loosely defined "AWC" in exercise physiology. What time period is AWC to be measured?

Looking at my last 1125211 pyramid, the area above 355W comes out to 107,387J for the ride. So, recovery has an effect. Of course, that' doesn't explain my lower value for the 3' test.

I think the difference for today's test and my 1' test may actually be ATP. I didn't hit my start as hard as I usually do. That's the sprint power, and I think the total work measurement with maximal efforts must come into play there. For my 1' test, I started off at 1400W. Today, I was only starting at 1100W, so the ATP wasn't utilized (maybe due to the sprints yesterday).

I wonder what duration Monod was thinking for his AWC calculation (I know, I just need to look it up -- gotta make our sack lunches for tomorrow now, and get the kids' stuff ready. Enough time spent on this for now...).
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Old 04-20-09, 10:47 PM
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1120W for the initial jump? hahahahhahaha... wimp!!
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Old 04-21-09, 07:07 AM
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^^^ agree. It's amazing how the legs are like "Dude, you're not fooling us. This ****'s going for 3 minutes. You can shove the first 5" up your seat tube."

So.... who else is in for this test? Time for war stories and comparison of accuracy.

It's only 3 minutes. C'mon. Surely someone here wants to know, to the Watt, what their CP is?

FWIW: I felt good on the commute home, and normal/strong on the commute in this morning. I don't think there's any training impact (maybe the same as a 3' interval). Once you tear through your AWC, you really don't have the strength to do any more damage

This is a lot lower impact than even a 20' test, and so far, the accuracy looks awesome.
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Old 04-21-09, 07:35 AM
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I'm in. I'll attempt it tonight.
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Old 04-21-09, 09:53 AM
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How bad do you think it would mess up my 5' intervals I have planned tonight? I'm thinking it might drop the wattage a little, but I'd still probably get just as much benefit out of them.
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Old 04-21-09, 10:09 AM
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I'll try on friday.
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Old 04-21-09, 10:14 AM
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C'mon! All the cool kids are doin' it!!
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Old 04-21-09, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
^^^ agree. It's amazing how the legs are like "Dude, you're not fooling us. This ****'s going for 3 minutes. You can shove the first 5" up your seat tube."

So.... who else is in for this test? Time for war stories and comparison of accuracy.

It's only 3 minutes. C'mon. Surely someone here wants to know, to the Watt, what their CP is?

FWIW: I felt good on the commute home, and normal/strong on the commute in this morning. I don't think there's any training impact (maybe the same as a 3' interval). Once you tear through your AWC, you really don't have the strength to do any more damage

This is a lot lower impact than even a 20' test, and so far, the accuracy looks awesome.
Dude.. you so ain't sucking me into this with the "it doesn't hurt" mentality!

I'll try it at the end of next week.
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Old 04-21-09, 10:28 AM
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I might have to give this a try later this week. I've had a PT for a few weeks now, maybe it's about time I try to actually figure out what my FTP is.
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Old 04-21-09, 11:35 AM
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In my own testing, my best guess was 350-355W FTP, which would mean a CP around 340-345W?
Are yo usaying FTP is different than CP60 or did you leave a # off of that CP?
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