"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Vinokourov

Old 06-02-04, 01:11 PM
  #1  
Devil
Since Ever Since
Thread Starter
 
Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Vinokourov

Today he finished over 23 minutes behind the stage winner, in a stage that contained three category 1 climbs.

Anyone who thinks he has any chance whatsoever of taking over for Jan (who finished 1'12" back and is in third place overall, 18" behind) in the Tour needs some kind of corrective brain surgery.
Devil is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 01:21 PM
  #2  
bac
Senior Member
 
bac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,481

Bikes: Too many to list!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Devil
Today he finished over 23 minutes behind the stage winner, in a stage that contained three category 1 climbs.

Anyone who thinks he has any chance whatsoever of taking over for Jan (who finished 1'12" back and is in third place overall, 18" behind) in the Tour needs some kind of corrective brain surgery.
Perhaps he's saving himself for the Tour .... like Simoni.
bac is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 01:27 PM
  #3  
Laggard
Lance Hater
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That's somewhat surprising. He looked pretty strong at Milan San Remo. All riders have really bad days though. Especially if they're just there for training.
Laggard is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 01:30 PM
  #4  
Devil
Since Ever Since
Thread Starter
 
Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Laggard - yeah, and he looked decent at L-B-L, too. I understand riders having a bad day, but this is really, really, really, really bad. One day like this in the Tour and it is over for him.
Devil is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 01:33 PM
  #5  
Laggard
Lance Hater
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It's definately not encouraging. As I do like the guy, all I can do is hope that this really bad day was caused by some type of illness. Nothing serious I hope.
Laggard is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 03:01 PM
  #6  
brent_dube
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, if you can't win, why push yourself too hard, if it's a bad day?
There is the time limit, and if I was racing, and I wasn't up for it, I would just take it as easy as I could and finish 20 minutes behind.
brent_dube is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 04:16 PM
  #7  
don d.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by Devil
Today he finished over 23 minutes behind the stage winner, in a stage that contained three category 1 climbs.

Anyone who thinks he has any chance whatsoever of taking over for Jan (who finished 1'12" back and is in third place overall, 18" behind) in the Tour needs some kind of corrective brain surgery.
On June 12, 2003, Tyler finished over 20 minutes back in the longest stage of the Dauphine. It was fairy obvious to everyone that hadn't had corrective brain surgery that he would have challenged Jan for 2nd in the TDF if he hadn't sustained a broken collarbone.

"One bad day in June don't spoil the whole TDF..."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003...results/stage4
 
Old 06-02-04, 04:29 PM
  #8  
Devil
Since Ever Since
Thread Starter
 
Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You make a good point. However, I don't think Vino is the caliber of rider that Tyler is.

We'll see in July.
Devil is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 05:19 PM
  #9  
don d.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by Devil
...I don't think Vino is the caliber of rider that Tyler is....
I will repress the urge to go directly to the smilies.

Vino: 35 pro victories including:

Paris-Nice overall 2
Paris-Nice stages 5
Tour of Switzerland overall 1(This is arguably the 4th hardest stage race.)
Tour of Switzerland stages 3
4 Days of Dunkurque overall 1
Tour De Loise overall 1
Dauphine Libere overall 1
Tour of Germany overall 1
Amstel Gold 1
Tour of Spain stages 1
Tour of France stages 1
Olympic Road Race silver medal


Now Tyler: 18 victories including:

Tour of Romandie overall 2
Dauphine Libere overall 1
Dauphine Libere stages 2
Liege-Bastogne-Liege 1
Tour of France stages 1
Tour of Italy stages 1

I have obviously left out some of the minor victories for both riders, but I think this listing is a fair representation of the significant accomplishments of both riders and Vino has had a far more illustrious career than Tyler. Not even close.
 
Old 06-02-04, 05:28 PM
  #10  
Laggard
Lance Hater
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks, Don.
Laggard is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 05:29 PM
  #11  
jkoman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Paso Robles Ca.
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
They are both great riders albeit different. Tyler spent much time riding and training for Postal. I would be pressed to try to state that one is significantly better than the other...world class in their own rights. You can bet that in the beginning of the tour, especially in the mountains, Lance will be aware of both of them...I'm rooting for Tyler...just can't help it.
jkoman is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 05:58 PM
  #12  
Devil
Since Ever Since
Thread Starter
 
Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Like I said, we'll see in July. I'll take Tyler over Vino for sure.
Devil is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 06:57 PM
  #13  
don d.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Unfortunately, July will give us an apples to oranges comparison since Tyler is a team leader and Vino is not.

A more even playing field would have been the 2003 Paris-Nice where both riders were team leaders and were off the leash so to speak. Vino won the General Classification and Hamilton won the Mountains competition. Both riders were on form in that race and the results were telling.

If Vino finishes 10th or 20th in the TDF, but Jan wins, Vino will have done his job. Who will be the better rider then? The higher placed rider? I don't think so.

Last edited by don d.; 06-02-04 at 07:55 PM.
 
Old 06-02-04, 07:17 PM
  #14  
Devil
Since Ever Since
Thread Starter
 
Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If Vino is going to go for a podium spot no matter what, like some on this board seem to think, then we will see in July.

Are you happy now?
Devil is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 07:36 PM
  #15  
geneman
rider of small bicycles
 
geneman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 1,686

Bikes: Cannondale

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I think it would be foolish for anyone to count Vino out as a TdF GC contender. Especially if Jan falters.

-mark
geneman is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 07:50 PM
  #16  
don d.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by geneman
I think it would be foolish for anyone to count Vino out as a TdF GC contender. Especially if Jan falters.

-mark
I agree wholeheartedly. Vino is da man! And those who think that Vino will betray his friend and team leader are either misinformed or sadly deluded.
 
Old 06-02-04, 08:09 PM
  #17  
bac
Senior Member
 
bac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,481

Bikes: Too many to list!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by don d.
Unfortunately, July will give us an apples to oranges comparison since Tyler is a team leader and Vino is not.
You may want to let Vino know about this. He has stated since the beginning of the season that he and Jan are the co-captains for this year's TdF, and ultimately it will be decided on the road.
bac is offline  
Old 06-02-04, 08:21 PM
  #18  
don d.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by bac
You may want to let Vino know about this. He has stated since the beginning of the season that he and Jan are the co-captains for this year's TdF, and ultimately it will be decided on the road.
I gotta ask you this...where did you see this? I must've missed it. But it works for me if it's true. Vino has certainly shown the class to ride at the top level.
 
Old 06-02-04, 10:45 PM
  #19  
brent_dube
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I hope T-Mobile places Vino as sort of a co-leader. It would be a waste of a great rider if they make him block the wind like the rest.
brent_dube is offline  
Old 06-03-04, 07:57 AM
  #20  
bac
Senior Member
 
bac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,481

Bikes: Too many to list!

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by don d.
I gotta ask you this...where did you see this? I must've missed it. But it works for me if it's true. Vino has certainly shown the class to ride at the top level.
Well, here is what Vino said:

"The best rider will be the leader, and I'm ready to assume that role" (in the 2004 TdF)

Another source with the same quote
bac is offline  
Old 06-03-04, 08:15 AM
  #21  
rygreen
In Difficulty
 
rygreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, Maine, USA
Posts: 138

Bikes: Bianchi Brava

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Devil
Today he finished over 23 minutes behind the stage winner, in a stage that contained three category 1 climbs.

Anyone who thinks he has any chance whatsoever of taking over for Jan (who finished 1'12" back and is in third place overall, 18" behind) in the Tour needs some kind of corrective brain surgery.
I wouldn't read too much into today's results. The peleton fractured early, with a group of 45 riders getting off the front. The large group (including Vino) finished 23 minutes behind the winner. If you'll recall, the same thing happened in the TdF a couple years back, with a big group finishing 30 minutes in front of the rest of the riders. There were no big GC men in the break though, and Lance made up the time and won. I believe that Andrei Kililev was in the break, and ended up finishing up high in the GC as a result. If anything, Vino's problem today was not his form, but with his decision not to try to go with the original break or to bridge the gap. I have a feeling that it is the team strategy to try to get results for Ullrich and Zabel (this being the Tour of Germany), and Vino isn't looking for a high GC finish.

I was just able to find the stage I was referring to - it was stage 8 of the 2001 Tour. Story is here:
http://eurocyclingnews.rivals.net/de...2&stid=8147098

Last edited by rygreen; 06-03-04 at 08:25 AM.
rygreen is offline  
Old 06-03-04, 08:44 AM
  #22  
don d.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)

Thx. I wish I would have read that before I picked Zabel for my Fantasy League team.

But I don't think that gives the impression Vino will undercut Ullrich as others have implied. They are the perfect foils for each other and a terrific combo for a T-Mobile victory.

And I think it definitely confirms Vino's "big bore caliber" as a rider.

PS. Notice Ullrich gets center stage?

Last edited by don d.; 06-03-04 at 09:26 AM.
 
Old 06-03-04, 09:38 AM
  #23  
lotek 
Senior Member
 
lotek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: n.w. superdrome
Posts: 17,690

Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by don d.
. . . I don't think that gives the impression Vino will undercut Ullrich as others have implied.
That would be me.
Don, I don't think that Vino will undercut Jan, but I do think that if Jan falters
Vino will be all over that like white on rice. I like Vino, he's got that fire that seems
to really push him, and despite his "bad day" (which like the song says don't mean a thing)
is one of the more consistent riders in the peloton, he is always up there in the top 5 or so.

Marty
__________________
Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
Odio la gente, tutti.


Want to upgrade your membership? Click Here.
lotek is offline  
Old 06-04-04, 05:31 AM
  #24  
roadwarrior
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,637

Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by don d.
Unfortunately, July will give us an apples to oranges comparison since Tyler is a team leader and Vino is not.

If Vino finishes 10th or 20th in the TDF, but Jan wins
But Vino's a better rider? But he's not a leader...hmmm...do the Director's know this?

But there's a big difference between being a good rider, and a leader. Huge difference.

Don't bet on Vino not being a leader..as little as Ullrich's raced this year...that will be interesting to watch.
roadwarrior is offline  
Old 06-04-04, 09:05 AM
  #25  
don d.
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by roadwarrior
But Vino's a better rider? But he's not a leader...hmmm...do the Director's know this?

But there's a big difference between being a good rider, and a leader. Huge difference.

Don't bet on Vino not being a leader..as little as Ullrich's raced this year...that will be interesting to watch.
Vino is in much the same position that Hamilton found himself in at USPS. A top rider, fully capable of leading a team in all kinds of races, but having another rider on the team who is as good as if not a better Grand Tour rider.

I said earlier that Vino was the leader at Paris-Nice. Obviously he has led the team at many major races, including the Tour of Switzerland.

But if Jan is on his game, Jan will be the leader at the TDF, which is what the focus of this thread has been. Jan is without a doubt a better time trial rider and, I believe, a better climber when he is fit.

Read all posts carefully.

Last edited by don d.; 06-04-04 at 09:11 AM.
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.