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Armstrong - the anti-doper?

Old 06-08-04, 06:41 AM
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brent_dube
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Armstrong - the anti-doper?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...n04/jun08news2

Check out the first two articles.

Now I'm skeptical of my past thought that Armstrong was always defending doping.

What do you all think of this? Isn't it a little suprising to hear of Armstrong messaging the ASO, UCI, and WADA over a possible doping method? What about the comments of Daniel Baal?
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Old 06-08-04, 06:50 AM
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Baal sounds like he wants to start a witch hunt.

I never knew Lance to defend doping in any way, except to criticize those who repeatedly accused him of doing so without any proof.

That's all I have to say about that.
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Old 06-08-04, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by live311
Baal sounds like he wants to start a witch hunt.
I figured that, right from first reading his mention of the average speed of last year's race. That 'record average speed = doping' argument is really stupid, in my opinion.
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Old 06-08-04, 08:10 AM
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It sounds to me as if Lance knows that others are using this synthetic and/or bovine haemoglobin, and he doesn't want them to have an unfair advantage over him.
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Old 06-08-04, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bac
It sounds to me as if Lance knows that others are using this synthetic and/or bovine haemoglobin, and he doesn't want them to have an unfair advantage over him.
i agree. lance has a lot at stake and if he has knowledge of possible doping going on, i think he is justified in doing what he did.
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Old 06-08-04, 08:52 AM
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Lance has always maintained that he wanted to keep the sport clean.
If he sent the e-mail, and that is not in dispute, I believe that its for the
above reason.

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Old 06-08-04, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by live311
I never knew Lance to defend doping in any way, except to criticize those who repeatedly accused him of doing so without any proof.
I also feel this way. Lance has shown strong solidarity with the riders in defence against rumors and speculation about doping and in defence against invasive testing methods(midnight raids, etc...). This solidarity has been wrongly interpreted as Lance's collusion with dopers, but it isn't. He is a worker in this sport and he has been a supporter of the rights of the workers.
 
Old 06-08-04, 09:34 AM
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Lance should know about this stuff, after all Postal got caught dumping empty packages of Actovegin (which is a derivative of calfs blood) during the 2000 Tour. It wasn't on the banned list at the time, nor was there a test for it, so they were not penalized.

Lance says he never heard of it, yet the team doctor had cleared it with French customs, becuase it wasn't illegal to have. Several teams also brought it to the Sydney Olympics. It wasn't on the banned list for the IOC either. And its use was common in almost every endurance sport.

Postal said it was used to treat skin abrasions, because it promotes oxygen uptake in the tissue and helps it heal faster. They make a 2% cream for this, but Postal had tossed empty vials of injectable solution.

This from the 2004 Giro

"The Nas and the prosecutor's office in Trento are investigating the discovery of a cache of drugs found in a waste bin in Cles, the starting point of the 18th stage of the Giro d'Italia, according to an ANSA report. The syringes, which were contained in a black bag, reportedly included quantities of Actovegin and are currently being analysed to determine the exact nature of the drugs.

It's a no no now, and on the WADA banned list.

But my question to everyone here is this...

If It's not on the banned list, becuase no one knows about the products benefit yet... And you are taking it, are you cheating?
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Old 06-08-04, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoothie104
But my question to everyone here is this...

If It's not on the banned list, becuase no one knows about the products benefit yet... And you are taking it, are you cheating?
morally, yes. offically, no.
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Old 06-08-04, 10:04 AM
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What is silly about that whole thing, and the thing with riders like Delgado, is that I thought the UCI had a rule against using drugs for 'direct performance enhancement' in general... meaning that drugs outside of the banned list could qualify (like the roids that Delgado used).
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Old 06-08-04, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
What is silly about that whole thing, and the thing with riders like Delgado, is that I thought the UCI had a rule against using drugs for 'direct performance enhancement' in general... meaning that drugs outside of the banned list could qualify (like the roids that Delgado used).

It is silly, you are correct.

Thats a loophole that is exploited all the time. "Proving" that the substance is performance enhancing would have to be done.

And for every expert that would testify to the performance enhancing effects, another one would deny it and claim therapuetical use. Just like the Postal Actovegin issue.
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Old 06-08-04, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoothie104
If It's not on the banned list, becuase no one knows about the products benefit yet... And you are taking it, are you cheating?
Barry Bonds says NO!
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Old 06-08-04, 10:57 PM
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Lance either is and was at one point the most tested pro athlete in te world. So given all the grief he has had to endure over it if he wants to vice a opinion on it, fine. After all alot of people voiced a opinion of the possibilty of him doping, so all is fair.........
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Old 06-09-04, 08:15 AM
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I forget the specifics so just try to follow the jist of this...Last year testing at the beginning of the season revealed that something like 12% of the tested riders tested out close to the max. allowed for hemotocrit levels...when the same tests were performed just a week or two before the TDF something like 40-50% of those tested were just under the max level. Now I am not an expert ...AND I MAY BE WRONG...but, I don't believe that these levels fluctuate that much in non pro athletes...even those that train a lot to improve performance. Does anyone else know more on this subject?
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Old 06-09-04, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jkoman
I forget the specifics so just try to follow the jist of this...Last year testing at the beginning of the season revealed that something like 12% of the tested riders tested out close to the max. allowed for hemotocrit levels...when the same tests were performed just a week or two before the TDF something like 40-50% of those tested were just under the max level. Now I am not an expert ...AND I MAY BE WRONG...but, I don't believe that these levels fluctuate that much in non pro athletes...even those that train a lot to improve performance. Does anyone else know more on this subject?

EPO can only be detected within 3 or 4 days of its use, but its effects last weeks. Most of the teams go to high altitude for a few days prior to the tour to help raise the hematocrit naturally, and to have an alibi if they test over 50%. Since the altitude training camps are usually in remote locations, There is virtually no out-of-competition testing. As long as its 3 or 4 days prior to the Tour, the EPO tests are negative. There will be a concentration of young new blood cells, but that in itself is not grounds for suspension... yet...

This can also be done a few weeks prior to the tour, and riders can raise the hematocrit to 55% or more, then withdrawl a liter or so of blood. After a week or two of hard racing the body's natural hematocrit levels will drop. This 55% EPO enhanced blood can then be re injected at that time or when a boost in endurance is needed, like the night before the first mountain stage, or an important time trial.

This is old school blood boosting, and very similair to what the US Olympic Cycling team did in 1984. It was common practice back then, and they didn't even really try to hide it.

There is still no test for Human Growth Hormone, and it is a great recovery agent. Since there is no test to determine the synthentic from the real, I assume that almost everyone is on it. Especially since it has been around for so long. Too much of it will turn you into a cave man, I read somewhere that the UCI was looking for riders whos' shoe size has increased, or those who are starting to get a big caveman forehead and jaw! HAHA!!
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Old 06-10-04, 11:32 AM
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Rumors?

Everyone is doping. Some just do better jobs of covering it up.
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Old 06-10-04, 11:58 AM
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Couple of random points ...

1. Damiano Cunego - whom I have been following for some time, and who is my new hero - has a naturally high hematocrit, as has his father. He has had a certificate to that effect for several years, acceptable to the UCI. Anyone could probably follow that path to avoid issues in legitimate cases.

2. French was banned for two years (this week?) for using animal hormones.

re the last reply, I guess that is one reason why I live over here now.

Cheers...Gary
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Old 06-10-04, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by gmason
1. Damiano Cunego - whom I have been following for some time, and who is my new hero - has a naturally high hematocrit, as has his father. He has had a certificate to that effect for several years, acceptable to the UCI. Anyone could probably follow that path to avoid issues in legitimate cases.
I guess that I'll have to make sure my dad is doped up too, in case I ever get into pro racing. That way I can say it's genetic also!
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