I raced. We all got screwed.
06-08-09, 07:02 AM
#51
Carpe Diem
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meh, what's done is done. time to focus on Murad.
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06-08-09, 07:17 AM
#52
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Unfortunately, while I loved the racing, it became extremely difficult for me to justify the risks I was taking every weekend for the reasons stated above. If more of the local peloton raced like a bunch of adults with jobs and families to go home to and no delusions of Cat 4 grandeur I might still be racing. If guys like bdcheung and Lithuania et al were the only kind of folks I had to line up with I'd be set, but throwing my safety and well-being at the mercy of some of these jokers just wasn't doing it for me anymore.
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06-08-09, 08:31 AM
#53
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DrPete,
Agreed. I rode both the 35+ 4/5 and the 4. Decidedly different races for exactly the reasons you described. The 35+ 4/5 was a lot of fun (i.e. "...peloton raced like a bunch of adults with jobs and families to go home to and no delusions of Cat 4 grandeur..."). The 4, an abortion.
And whoever called out BBC (Pink and Black team) for sketchiness, lets cut the **** and get down to brass tacks: that guy was simply atrocious at keeping his line ALL DAY. Infuriating.
Agreed. I rode both the 35+ 4/5 and the 4. Decidedly different races for exactly the reasons you described. The 35+ 4/5 was a lot of fun (i.e. "...peloton raced like a bunch of adults with jobs and families to go home to and no delusions of Cat 4 grandeur..."). The 4, an abortion.
And whoever called out BBC (Pink and Black team) for sketchiness, lets cut the **** and get down to brass tacks: that guy was simply atrocious at keeping his line ALL DAY. Infuriating.
06-08-09, 08:45 AM
#54
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I should say one thing, I call out the kit colors so people on the team know they've got problems. I've happily talked to other squads about guys on my own team that need a talkin' to in the past. It happens, and although in the moment's fury I may have called him a certain part of the male anatomy, I hope someone addresses the concern and helps him develop better skills. Personally, that's half of the reason I joined a team, to become a better bike rider and racer. I think a lot of guys lose focus on that with the numbers and points and placings, myself included sometimes.
Last edited by RudeSiggy; 06-08-09 at 08:59 AM.
06-08-09, 08:55 AM
#55
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In case you hadn't read this guy's blog yet, check it out. He's was the unfortunate culprit of crash #2, and at least he was open to the criticisms and learned from it. Unfortunate stuff but at least everyone walked away from that incident. - https://drakejordan.blogspot.com/2009...ally-ride.html
This guy's got a family with two kids. So it's not just you older guys that want to get home in one peice, so you gotta stop reasoning it in that way. I'm a single guy with no kids, and I still wanna make it home with all my skin and to work in one piece on Monday. Don't discriminate against the single folks (and stop using your kid's soccer game as an excuse for an early-morning ride gosh darnit! I wanna sleep!).
But I digress...
This guy's got a family with two kids. So it's not just you older guys that want to get home in one peice, so you gotta stop reasoning it in that way. I'm a single guy with no kids, and I still wanna make it home with all my skin and to work in one piece on Monday. Don't discriminate against the single folks (and stop using your kid's soccer game as an excuse for an early-morning ride gosh darnit! I wanna sleep!).
But I digress...
06-08-09, 09:18 AM
#56
Tiocfáidh ár Lá
Sounds to me like you city folks need to come out to the country and do some racin : https://blacksburgcyclingclassic.com/
06-08-09, 09:31 AM
#57
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I am just happy I made it out of the 4 race with all my skin and teeth. It seems like less technical crits like "Ride Sally Ride" are actually more dangerous, because 1. it is easier for weaker riders not to get dropped and 2. People take more risks because they perceive the course to be more forgiving. I stopped counting the number of times I was bumped, clipped or otherwise nearly killed for no apparent reason.
My teammate Richard is the one who broke his wrist in the 5 race, the initial prognosis is pins, plates and surgery and likely a premature end to his season. He was in good spirits all things considered, he even came back in a sling to watch the rest of the races.
My teammate Richard is the one who broke his wrist in the 5 race, the initial prognosis is pins, plates and surgery and likely a premature end to his season. He was in good spirits all things considered, he even came back in a sling to watch the rest of the races.
06-08-09, 09:33 AM
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RSiggy,
Yeah, someone needs to talk with those guys. Strong enough, just oblivious to what's going on around them. It's a recipe for disaster. We all remember the Tradezone inside squeeze crash...
Drake is a great guy and fun to race with...even when he's yelling at you during a Greenbelt. Ha, ha. Was great to see B. Vaughn impart some wisdom from above on your blog concerning that episode, "...don't take your hands off the bars to touch, feel, push anyone - ever - period.... Period. If you have to yell, then yell."
Yeah, someone needs to talk with those guys. Strong enough, just oblivious to what's going on around them. It's a recipe for disaster. We all remember the Tradezone inside squeeze crash...
Drake is a great guy and fun to race with...even when he's yelling at you during a Greenbelt. Ha, ha. Was great to see B. Vaughn impart some wisdom from above on your blog concerning that episode, "...don't take your hands off the bars to touch, feel, push anyone - ever - period.... Period. If you have to yell, then yell."
06-08-09, 09:34 AM
#59
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Actually, there aren't a lot of races here. Likely 10 or less total RR, CR and TTs here in NE for the whole year...
06-08-09, 09:38 AM
#60
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RSiggy,
Yeah, someone needs to talk with those guys. Strong enough, just oblivious to what's going on around them. It's a recipe for disaster. We all remember the Tradezone inside squeeze crash...
Drake is a great guy and fun to race with...even when he's yelling at you during a Greenbelt. Ha, ha. Was great to see B. Vaughn impart some wisdom from above on your blog concerning that episode, "...don't take your hands off the bars to touch, feel, push anyone - ever - period.... Period. If you have to yell, then yell."
Yeah, someone needs to talk with those guys. Strong enough, just oblivious to what's going on around them. It's a recipe for disaster. We all remember the Tradezone inside squeeze crash...
Drake is a great guy and fun to race with...even when he's yelling at you during a Greenbelt. Ha, ha. Was great to see B. Vaughn impart some wisdom from above on your blog concerning that episode, "...don't take your hands off the bars to touch, feel, push anyone - ever - period.... Period. If you have to yell, then yell."
06-08-09, 09:40 AM
#61
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06-08-09, 09:47 AM
#62
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In case you hadn't read this guy's blog yet, check it out. He's was the unfortunate culprit of crash #2, and at least he was open to the criticisms and learned from it. Unfortunate stuff but at least everyone walked away from that incident. - https://drakejordan.blogspot.com/2009...ally-ride.html
maybe thats just bf...
06-08-09, 09:48 AM
#63
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Mine was more or less me just "whinging" about the lack of racing and being stuck here for a while.
06-08-09, 11:27 AM
#64
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DrPete,
Agreed. I rode both the 35+ 4/5 and the 4. Decidedly different races for exactly the reasons you described. The 35+ 4/5 was a lot of fun (i.e. "...peloton raced like a bunch of adults with jobs and families to go home to and no delusions of Cat 4 grandeur..."). The 4, an abortion.
Agreed. I rode both the 35+ 4/5 and the 4. Decidedly different races for exactly the reasons you described. The 35+ 4/5 was a lot of fun (i.e. "...peloton raced like a bunch of adults with jobs and families to go home to and no delusions of Cat 4 grandeur..."). The 4, an abortion.
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06-08-09, 11:33 AM
#65
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Sounds to me like you city folks need to come out to the country and do some racin : https://blacksburgcyclingclassic.com/
Unfortunately I think most of us "city folks" with be racing at the nearby Tour of Washington County that weekend. I've ridden a good bit around blacksburg/roanoke and I love it. Plus the collegiate racers tell me that is a great course...
It's tough to battle with ToWC. For DC folks, it isn't even half as far away (I-81 to blacksburg sucks), and we've got Joe Jefferson as one of the organizers. A lot of people in DC show up just to support his events.
06-08-09, 11:36 AM
#66
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I heard Joe Jefferson was an anti-semite.
(listserv joke. he really loves Jews)
(listserv joke. he really loves Jews)
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06-08-09, 11:43 AM
#67
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Here's my take of the Cat 4 events, mixing fact with opinion:
About 2 laps in the pace is slow so I set myself up at the front. Perfect. I look at Martin (Bike Rack) and him and I jump in a break together. As I'm in a break, and a kid (literally 13 year old) got taken out in the peloton. Someone ran him over and gashed his head open with their chainring.
The race SOMEHOW continues even though they'd called an ambulance and EMTs are blocking the right two lanes after the turn, in everyone's line after bombing that fast turn. In my opinion when the ambulance was called, this should have been neutralized. We now have to turn from 4 lanes to basically 1.5 lanes and they're blocking the outside line out of the turn. They're protecting the kid by aiming the other 89 guys right at him. Dumb.
About 5 laps later, I'm back in the pack and an idiot next to me gives a guy who was going backwards a shove forward so he wouldn't hit his wheel. Luckily it didn't affect me but the idiot swerved back and left, and 2 or 3 guys crash from that mayhem. Now we have a crash between turn 1 and 2 and still the kid with a gashed head immediately after turn 2.
The race continues, although the guys in the recent crash get out of the way quickly. After a lap or two, we pass the start/finish and they announce, with 17 laps to go, that we have ONE lap to go in the RACE.
I bolt up the outside, finding one of my teammate's wheel with half a lap left, somehow. Having gassed myself to get up to the front in 1/2 lap, he lead me out to perfection before the final turn but in the wind I got passed by 5 guys (one was bdcheung). I'm 6th, my boy Dan takes 7th behind me.
After this, about ten minutes pass and they clear the course. People are taking team pics and getting undressed, kissing their children thankful to be alive and they call the Cat 4s back to the line to re-start the race. They're calling the last sprint a "prime." WHAT THE (expletive)?!?!?!
We are now going to race 10 laps for the finish. Somehow, the 17 laps we just raced - and they did say "one to go" for the race, not prime - are now going to count as nothing compared to these 10 laps they're adding on.
Horsesh*t. I was covering a break for those first 4 of ten, then re-found my positioning with 1-2 to go. In the last corner, and idiot from BBC (black/pink kit?) takes a turn wide and nearly puts me into the curb, with another teammate on my wheel. I pedaled across the line softly, pissed off at the entire situation. I finished 25th because I wasn't going to add to the mayhem of f*cktards sprinting for umpteenth place.
If you didn't race you missed nothing. I'm sorry for the WWVC guys because it's a great event, but as soon as the ambulance was called and the course was blocked, refs should have neutralized it (think Tyson's, we took a neutral lap, then restarted).
On a personal level, I'm mad because now my top ten finish from the first part of the race is worth nothing. Holy hell this was a dumb race because of bad decisions. I understand there was a miscommunication because the ref heard 7 laps to go instead of 17 laps, so he called the race, but that was too late to make things safer anyways (in fact creating more chaos on that first final lap). And what the hell was the point of the last 10 laps? To let us "race more?" Bull.
I talked to the ref (was that fatguyracer? If so, fatguy, I'm the NCVC guy that talked to you after the race). In hindsight, I should have actually protested so my top ten counted for something. I'm really sorry for guys like bdcheung that should have been in the money on the first race, then get screwed in the second race. WTF. They counted the first race for BAR points, but nobody cares about BAR points anyways.
If you have to call an ambulance and you know it's going to get on the course, neutralize the darn race immediately. I hope that kid's ok...
About 2 laps in the pace is slow so I set myself up at the front. Perfect. I look at Martin (Bike Rack) and him and I jump in a break together. As I'm in a break, and a kid (literally 13 year old) got taken out in the peloton. Someone ran him over and gashed his head open with their chainring.
The race SOMEHOW continues even though they'd called an ambulance and EMTs are blocking the right two lanes after the turn, in everyone's line after bombing that fast turn. In my opinion when the ambulance was called, this should have been neutralized. We now have to turn from 4 lanes to basically 1.5 lanes and they're blocking the outside line out of the turn. They're protecting the kid by aiming the other 89 guys right at him. Dumb.
About 5 laps later, I'm back in the pack and an idiot next to me gives a guy who was going backwards a shove forward so he wouldn't hit his wheel. Luckily it didn't affect me but the idiot swerved back and left, and 2 or 3 guys crash from that mayhem. Now we have a crash between turn 1 and 2 and still the kid with a gashed head immediately after turn 2.
The race continues, although the guys in the recent crash get out of the way quickly. After a lap or two, we pass the start/finish and they announce, with 17 laps to go, that we have ONE lap to go in the RACE.
I bolt up the outside, finding one of my teammate's wheel with half a lap left, somehow. Having gassed myself to get up to the front in 1/2 lap, he lead me out to perfection before the final turn but in the wind I got passed by 5 guys (one was bdcheung). I'm 6th, my boy Dan takes 7th behind me.
After this, about ten minutes pass and they clear the course. People are taking team pics and getting undressed, kissing their children thankful to be alive and they call the Cat 4s back to the line to re-start the race. They're calling the last sprint a "prime." WHAT THE (expletive)?!?!?!
We are now going to race 10 laps for the finish. Somehow, the 17 laps we just raced - and they did say "one to go" for the race, not prime - are now going to count as nothing compared to these 10 laps they're adding on.
Horsesh*t. I was covering a break for those first 4 of ten, then re-found my positioning with 1-2 to go. In the last corner, and idiot from BBC (black/pink kit?) takes a turn wide and nearly puts me into the curb, with another teammate on my wheel. I pedaled across the line softly, pissed off at the entire situation. I finished 25th because I wasn't going to add to the mayhem of f*cktards sprinting for umpteenth place.
If you didn't race you missed nothing. I'm sorry for the WWVC guys because it's a great event, but as soon as the ambulance was called and the course was blocked, refs should have neutralized it (think Tyson's, we took a neutral lap, then restarted).
On a personal level, I'm mad because now my top ten finish from the first part of the race is worth nothing. Holy hell this was a dumb race because of bad decisions. I understand there was a miscommunication because the ref heard 7 laps to go instead of 17 laps, so he called the race, but that was too late to make things safer anyways (in fact creating more chaos on that first final lap). And what the hell was the point of the last 10 laps? To let us "race more?" Bull.
I talked to the ref (was that fatguyracer? If so, fatguy, I'm the NCVC guy that talked to you after the race). In hindsight, I should have actually protested so my top ten counted for something. I'm really sorry for guys like bdcheung that should have been in the money on the first race, then get screwed in the second race. WTF. They counted the first race for BAR points, but nobody cares about BAR points anyways.
If you have to call an ambulance and you know it's going to get on the course, neutralize the darn race immediately. I hope that kid's ok...
As for the issue of neutralizing right away...It's always a tough call and has a lot of gray area. Sometime the situation doesn't always require that drastic of a measure provided there is enough room to still keep it going, as was the case in the 2 earlier races that had emergency responders on course, including 2 ambo's in the Cat 5 race. We do the best we can to keep things moving as safely as possible so you all can race. Shutting a race down is the last thing we want to do. In Cat 4 race, I could tell just from the radio call that this was far more serious than the earlier races and I went on scene to observe for myself what needed to be done. After watching the race move thru turn 2 for about 3 laps it was clear that I couldn't leave the race open to continue, Even though the ambulances that were on there way would have plenty of room to work. So I asked for a lap count and decided based on the intel I got have the bell rung and finish the race.
Here's the part where I will opine a little bit.
I've been racing since Methuselah was a pup (and am a Cat 4 lifer) and have been in race situations where emergency responders have occupied part of the course. And on courses a lot tighter than Sally Ride, probably the most wide open crit course in MABRA. The usual course of action in these situations is for the riders to police themselves, IE not "race", thru the the danger area, so they could keep racing. In these situation there is almost always an official on the scene monitoring these things to make sure this happens. So from my perspective as a rider with maybe more race experience than most, I was expecting this to happen in this case too. I admit I was wrong. I should not have assumed anything. I can guarantee that in the future I will not be making this mistake again.
For what it's worth, I was the one who made the call to shut down the Tysons Cat 4 crit too, but since I was motor, I new how many laps were left and we made the right call for stoppage and a restart. However in that case it was clear that there would not be enough room on the road to even let the pack police itself.
On a personal note:
When they asked me to be CR for this event (My first one as CR, every ref has to have a first one.) I said OK, because I remembered how smoothly the event went last year when I was a Motor Ref. One crash all day and it was in the 123 race, and it was not serious. I knew Saturday was not going to be a walk the park, but to be honest I wasn't expecting to have to deal with issues of the magnitude that were presented to me either. Like the commercial says, "Life comes at you fast." So true. Given the circumstances, and my current skill set, I did the best I could. I worked with my crew, the promoters and you, the racers to come up with the best solutions to the problems we had. I take full responsibility for my decisions (and the fallout too) and I stand by them and those of my crew. For myself, it was truly a learning experience and one that I will profit greatly from and apply to my next CR assignment.
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06-08-09, 11:50 AM
#68
Carpe Diem
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John-
Huge respect and thanks to you, and the other officials, for the work you do. Decisions made on the spot are never perfect and it's easy for anyone to criticize you with the aid of hindsight.
Do you know if results are posted online anywhere? I'm a bit paranoid that I sprinted on the wrong side of the white lane line.
Huge respect and thanks to you, and the other officials, for the work you do. Decisions made on the spot are never perfect and it's easy for anyone to criticize you with the aid of hindsight.
Do you know if results are posted online anywhere? I'm a bit paranoid that I sprinted on the wrong side of the white lane line.
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Last edited by bdcheung; 06-08-09 at 11:53 AM.
06-08-09, 11:57 AM
#69
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Tough day for you, and I appreciate your patience throughout all of the events Saturday and this post-race pablum of a discussion we've put together. If there's one thing we can all take from it, it's that we're Cat 4s for a reason, haha...
I love someone else's blog about RSR's course. The blog joked about how WWVC must have consulted with lawyers before creating the race - 4-lanes wide the entire course, perfect roads, and non-technical corners. How we manage to screw that up is beyond me. I like what you said and really wish there had been some way a few representatives from each team could have agreed to take it easy when necessary... but 90 guys with twice that for a heart rate... crazy stuff.
Any word on how King is doing? I saw on his big brother's twitter he needed 70 stitches...
Last edited by RudeSiggy; 06-08-09 at 12:07 PM.
06-08-09, 12:02 PM
#70
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Thanks Brian and Siggy! I really appreciate that. Hopefully Reston, my next CR gig will go much better. Since Kevin will be there too, I'm sure it will.
I don't know about results. Those are the responsibility of the promoter. And you weren't the only one on the wrong side of the line. Lots of riders were doing it.
I havnt heard about Jake, but if my observations are anything to go by, he'll be fine. He's a tough kid.
I don't know about results. Those are the responsibility of the promoter. And you weren't the only one on the wrong side of the line. Lots of riders were doing it.
I havnt heard about Jake, but if my observations are anything to go by, he'll be fine. He's a tough kid.
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John
'09 Cannondale CAAD9 - Team Latitude/ABRT Special.
'04 Lemond Victorie Ti
'98 IF Crown Jewel (dead)
'92 Trek2100 (TT)
'50 something Gino Bartali (fixer)
'02 Ducati ST4s (Moto-Ref mount)
My Blog
06-08-09, 12:04 PM
#71
Carpe Diem
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
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Thanks Brian! I really appreciate that. Hopefully Reston, my next CR gig will go much better. Since Kevin will be there too, I'm sure it will.
I don't know about results. Those are the responsibility of the promoter. And you weren't the only one on the wrong side of the line. Lots of riders were doing it.
I don't know about results. Those are the responsibility of the promoter. And you weren't the only one on the wrong side of the line. Lots of riders were doing it.
Somehow, small details like that escaped my mind as I was taxing my body beyond anaerobic levels of intensity.
*shrug*
c'est la vie.
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"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
06-08-09, 12:06 PM
#72
部門ニ/自転車オタク
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 3,173
Bikes: 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, 2012 Blue Norcross CX, 2016 Blue Axino SL, 2016 Scott Scale, Fixie, Fetish Cycles Road Bike (on the trainer)
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Results posting tonight is the word from the boss.
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Envision, Energize, Enable
Envision, Energize, Enable
06-08-09, 07:55 PM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, DC
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Sounds to me like you city folks need to come out to the country and do some racin : https://blacksburgcyclingclassic.com/
That's why I didn't pull up next to that junior girl. It wouldn't have been an inside squeeze unless she swerved wide to the left for the umpteenth time during that sprint. She was on the white line, so I had 95% of the lane open...most of the time. I had nowhere to go around on my right that I was aware of. Her dad apologized for the swerving. I said it wasn't a big deal, but I just wanted the girl to know that what she did was dangerous. What if we'd only had 1 or 2 lanes for all of us? His response was that it was because I could've [maybe] placed better [and gotten a Clif bar or water bottle prize]. Yeah, picking myself or your kid up off the pavement after I hit her or the curb would've been worth the risk. Maybe we could have slid across the line for 3rd and 4th instead. Perhaps this is the difference between men's and women's cat 4. Or maybe it's just me and the other normal people out there versus the sketchy.
06-09-09, 02:58 PM
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Washington, DC
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Bikes: '07 Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL, DuraAce, Easton EA90 Aero Wheels (or MAVIC Carbone SLs)
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Results are up on USA Cycling.
As cheung originally said, we got screwed. Nothing up for the "first race."
https://www.usacycling.org/results/i...rmit=2009-1613
As cheung originally said, we got screwed. Nothing up for the "first race."
https://www.usacycling.org/results/i...rmit=2009-1613
06-09-09, 03:07 PM
#75
Banned.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ATX, Ex So Cal
Posts: 11,058
Bikes: Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
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Ride Sally Ride crit.
Early crash left one rider with hamburger on his face. I'm surfing the front with 17 laps to go, when the lap counter suddenly reads "1" and the bell goes off. Refs say "LAST LAP".
I keep at the front and sprint for a 4th place finish. w00t.
As I'm loading my bike, teammates yell at me "HEY MAN, the 4's are lining up!"
wtf?
Chief ref (who I think is a forum member) says that when the ambulance was called, he heard "7 to go" over the radio and not "17 to go" which is why they decided to end the race.
We're restarting with 10 to go. I have no matches left.
Pack finish.
Early crash left one rider with hamburger on his face. I'm surfing the front with 17 laps to go, when the lap counter suddenly reads "1" and the bell goes off. Refs say "LAST LAP".
I keep at the front and sprint for a 4th place finish. w00t.
As I'm loading my bike, teammates yell at me "HEY MAN, the 4's are lining up!"
wtf?
Chief ref (who I think is a forum member) says that when the ambulance was called, he heard "7 to go" over the radio and not "17 to go" which is why they decided to end the race.
We're restarting with 10 to go. I have no matches left.
Pack finish.