club racing question ( C GRADE )
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: sydney australia
Posts: 30
Bikes: colnago master olympic, fondriest tf1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
club racing question ( C GRADE )
my club hosted a road race last weekend and to cut a long story short i split the group by sitting up, then chased the leaders down who were all apart of my club and then i was dropped back to the chassing group.
there were 4 of us again from the same club and we started to organise ourselves to chase them(the leading 3) down but we had a fresh member of another club with us ?
i said dont chase them as we have a 1,2 and 3 for the race, let him do the work and chase.
this is the question?
at club level do you think this is appropriate or should you just ride your own race ?
its happened to me in the past with lead out's and being boxed in, but now i feel a little guilty.
there were 4 of us again from the same club and we started to organise ourselves to chase them(the leading 3) down but we had a fresh member of another club with us ?
i said dont chase them as we have a 1,2 and 3 for the race, let him do the work and chase.
this is the question?
at club level do you think this is appropriate or should you just ride your own race ?
its happened to me in the past with lead out's and being boxed in, but now i feel a little guilty.
#2
Dirt-riding heretic
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 17,413
Bikes: Lynskey R230/Red, Blue Triad SL/Red, Cannondale Scalpel 3/X9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
Moving to racing. To the OP, posting this in the racing subforum will yield MUCH better discussion.
__________________
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
#3
bf is my facebook.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,156
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#4
Dirt-riding heretic
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Posts: 17,413
Bikes: Lynskey R230/Red, Blue Triad SL/Red, Cannondale Scalpel 3/X9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
I'm assuming it's a training race of some kind. At any rate, the guys/gals in here will have a better shot than the main forum.
__________________
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
"Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains
Posts: 6,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Many countries outside the USA use A, B, C instead of cats 1-5.
The OP's tactics were correct. Doesn't matter what level of racing it is.
The OP's tactics were correct. Doesn't matter what level of racing it is.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 458
Bikes: Surly Pacer, Hillbrick Pista, Avanti Sprint, Commencal Combi Deluxe
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yeah - C-grade is like Cat 3 I guess.
Tactics were probably right. Except that I've never known of people from the same club working together to that extent. In fact, as far as I know its against the rule. Everyone from my club are friends and we all pretty much try to smash each other in races...
Tactics were probably right. Except that I've never known of people from the same club working together to that extent. In fact, as far as I know its against the rule. Everyone from my club are friends and we all pretty much try to smash each other in races...
#7
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: sydney australia
Posts: 30
Bikes: colnago master olympic, fondriest tf1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
ok, ill try the general discussion as i cant see the racing thread.we have aphabetical grading at club levels levels here A to E. thanks
#8
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,299
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 713 Times
in
367 Posts
You've got 3 people in the break, and 4 in your chase group, with one guy from another team in that chase group.
The only way it would be acceptable for your group to chase, and tow up the other team would be if there was a high probability that the break gets caught, unless you get up there to help. Otherwise, you cannot tow the other team up to the break.
In your situation, there are several things you could do: One, try to send one rider at time up to bridge, giving you 4 strong in the break, but only doing so if you get away clean from the other rider, Two, dropping back to the field, and blocking at the front of the peleton to assure the break stays away.
Three, take turns escorting the other team's rider out the back of your chase group, and then bridge up to the break without dragging the other team up.
Which option is the best depends mostly on the likelyhood that your 3 teammates can stay away.
The only way it would be acceptable for your group to chase, and tow up the other team would be if there was a high probability that the break gets caught, unless you get up there to help. Otherwise, you cannot tow the other team up to the break.
In your situation, there are several things you could do: One, try to send one rider at time up to bridge, giving you 4 strong in the break, but only doing so if you get away clean from the other rider, Two, dropping back to the field, and blocking at the front of the peleton to assure the break stays away.
Three, take turns escorting the other team's rider out the back of your chase group, and then bridge up to the break without dragging the other team up.
Which option is the best depends mostly on the likelyhood that your 3 teammates can stay away.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#9
Senior Member
In races other than specific team’s events, visible collusion is very seriously frowned on at club events (here in Victoria) though it happens all the time.
#10
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,299
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 713 Times
in
367 Posts
If that's true,then it's totally different here.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 458
Bikes: Surly Pacer, Hillbrick Pista, Avanti Sprint, Commencal Combi Deluxe
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.
In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Clubs != Teams
But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.
In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.
But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.
In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.
#13
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: sydney australia
Posts: 30
Bikes: colnago master olympic, fondriest tf1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
thank you all,
its what i thought its an individual race and i think i have been led the wrong way ( but not on purpose i hope ). I'll ask the president of the club and not go off other's members ( at coffee ) in the club and i'll appologise to that rider in white the next race see him.
thanks again
the forum really is good
and thanks dr pete for putting the post in the correct forum
its what i thought its an individual race and i think i have been led the wrong way ( but not on purpose i hope ). I'll ask the president of the club and not go off other's members ( at coffee ) in the club and i'll appologise to that rider in white the next race see him.
thanks again
the forum really is good
and thanks dr pete for putting the post in the correct forum
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: flatlands
Posts: 603
Bikes: GT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In Australia there are cycling clubs, lots of which have been around for 100 or more years. They usually have racing every single weekend all year long. Crits, road racing, tt, hill climbs etc. You must also be afilliated with a cycling club to hold a UCI/Aust cycling federation domestic race licence. to race any international event you also have to hold an equivelent UCI internatioanl licence.
We have inter club challenges, regional, state and national racing as well as open or elite racing.
club racing is usually graded A - E grade, some open racing will often have a "b" & "c" grade as well or races are handicapped and you ride off scratch.
At large race carnivals, often it will be elite/open division then perhaps masters division racing.
Track racing can be different again.
Just remember that A grade is the top grade and at any club weekend racing you could line up with a world champion junior track rider through to perhaps a ex-pro or world cup level master 2 /3 /4 and lots of everything else in between, strong club A graders, full time (more 99 % part time) aussie pro's or euro pro's home for a break from racing internationally.
it's not uncommon for the fast women, like rochelle gilmore to be racing in B or C grade (perhaps winning C grade), so yeah unless it is a majour race the women race against the men.
We have inter club challenges, regional, state and national racing as well as open or elite racing.
club racing is usually graded A - E grade, some open racing will often have a "b" & "c" grade as well or races are handicapped and you ride off scratch.
At large race carnivals, often it will be elite/open division then perhaps masters division racing.
Track racing can be different again.
Just remember that A grade is the top grade and at any club weekend racing you could line up with a world champion junior track rider through to perhaps a ex-pro or world cup level master 2 /3 /4 and lots of everything else in between, strong club A graders, full time (more 99 % part time) aussie pro's or euro pro's home for a break from racing internationally.
it's not uncommon for the fast women, like rochelle gilmore to be racing in B or C grade (perhaps winning C grade), so yeah unless it is a majour race the women race against the men.
Last edited by woodduck; 06-08-09 at 11:49 PM.
#16
Does Not Exist
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Voltairia
Posts: 2,094
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
^
So why do they even bother to disallow team tactics in some races? They should just remove the team restriction from all races.
So why do they even bother to disallow team tactics in some races? They should just remove the team restriction from all races.
#17
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,299
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 713 Times
in
367 Posts
Clubs != Teams
But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.
In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.
But yeah, its actually against the rules to collude with anyone, be they clubmates or otherwise! Unless the rules for that race specifically allow team tactics to occur. Amateur cycling, for the most part, is an individual sport in Australia. In A-grade (i.e. Cat 1) there are some teams that will work together but no one does anything about it.
In South Australia (my state) we have a separate teams series for crit racing. Its pretty much an A-grade only affair. All of the lower grades are still meant to be individual.
If team tactics aren't allowed, why even have teams?
Heck, if you can't have team tactics, why not just ban drafting also, and make everything a time trial?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#18
Geosynchronous Falconeer
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,312
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What? Team work is against the rules? Which rules? Somehow I'm skeptical. Can anyone cite an official rule?
I don't believe it at all. Why do teams even exist?
I don't believe it at all. Why do teams even exist?
__________________
Bring the pain.
Bring the pain.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: flatlands
Posts: 603
Bikes: GT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I couldn't quote any rule against team work as I have never heard of it before.
I was making a generalisation when i wrote "noticed/allowed/encouraged"
of course there are teams in Australia, but you join a cycling club in order to get a race licence. Cycling teams are usually made up of part time or full time riders. Over here they are more or less trade teams, built up from different club members.
I think in the USA it is the only place that only has teams and not cycling clubs and trade teams.
for example Grahame Browne is a memeber of the same cycling club as I am, but obviously he is on the rabobank team.
#20
Geosynchronous Falconeer
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,312
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I couldn't quote any rule against team work as I have never heard of it before.
I was making a generalisation when i wrote "noticed/allowed/encouraged"
of course there are teams in Australia, but you join a cycling club in order to get a race licence. Cycling teams are usually made up of part time or full time riders. Over here they are more or less trade teams, built up from different club members.
I think in the USA it is the only place that only has teams and not cycling clubs and trade teams.
for example Grahame Browne is a memeber of the same cycling club as I am, but obviously he is on the rabobank team.
I was making a generalisation when i wrote "noticed/allowed/encouraged"
of course there are teams in Australia, but you join a cycling club in order to get a race licence. Cycling teams are usually made up of part time or full time riders. Over here they are more or less trade teams, built up from different club members.
I think in the USA it is the only place that only has teams and not cycling clubs and trade teams.
for example Grahame Browne is a memeber of the same cycling club as I am, but obviously he is on the rabobank team.
__________________
Bring the pain.
Bring the pain.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: flatlands
Posts: 603
Bikes: GT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
first of all, you have to be a member of a cycling club to obtain a UCI domestic race licence to race in Australia.
The club that I am a member of has a crit track which is less thana 10 minute ride from my house. It's been there since the roads got too busy to race on in the 1970's, it is a tough course. they hold racing there every weelend of the year. Another club hosts a series on Tuesday nights through summer as well as there being opens and one day elite races.
there is also a club house built which has drinks, simple food etc, stores all the club clothing bikes, childrens bikes track bikes etc etc anything to do with the club.
they have development programs for kids aged from about 6 onwards. crit, road racing and track racing.
The club will organise social weekends away for touring (or training rides for state and national events)
We have track racing training each week and a racing series during summer.
you go through the club system, become sponsered and then ride for a trade team, but you still retain membership with a cycling club in Australia.
Although no where as popular as football and cricket in Australia, cycling racing is a real grass roots sport in Australia and has a very strong following. The club system has been around for over 100 years (my club is 104 years old or something) and Aussies have been racing in Europe since about the 1920's.
so the clubs are things of tradition also. It's just the way the system is.
The club that I am a member of has a crit track which is less thana 10 minute ride from my house. It's been there since the roads got too busy to race on in the 1970's, it is a tough course. they hold racing there every weelend of the year. Another club hosts a series on Tuesday nights through summer as well as there being opens and one day elite races.
there is also a club house built which has drinks, simple food etc, stores all the club clothing bikes, childrens bikes track bikes etc etc anything to do with the club.
they have development programs for kids aged from about 6 onwards. crit, road racing and track racing.
The club will organise social weekends away for touring (or training rides for state and national events)
We have track racing training each week and a racing series during summer.
you go through the club system, become sponsered and then ride for a trade team, but you still retain membership with a cycling club in Australia.
Although no where as popular as football and cricket in Australia, cycling racing is a real grass roots sport in Australia and has a very strong following. The club system has been around for over 100 years (my club is 104 years old or something) and Aussies have been racing in Europe since about the 1920's.
so the clubs are things of tradition also. It's just the way the system is.
#22
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: sydney australia
Posts: 30
Bikes: colnago master olympic, fondriest tf1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
follow up
i spoke to the president of the club and was told open club tactics are not illegal however are not encouraged.They(tactics) can discourage other racers who may not be in a club to be discouraged from returning to race as they have no one in the field to support them.It is more individual racing honing your skills and developing your tactics at the lower grades. However if you chose to help one of your mates it is not illegal.