Bob Dopolina 

I have a race on Saturday that is a selection race for a National Championship race. It is a mass start RR but limited (the selection) to riders from the city I live in and the county (like a state).

Basically each major city and county can take 6 riders to the National Championship. Ok, simple enough. Here comes the interesting part.

My team has riders from both the city and the county. I am unable to qualify, because I'm a white guy, even if I won the race outright. No big deal, I've been in this position before.

So my goal is to help as many guys from my team qualify for the Nationals (or National Team Selection race I really have no idea).

So today we hashed out some tactics.

It involves 4 guys going to the front on the first lap, hammering their brains out and then a rabbit goes (into the headwind section) just after we start lap 2 of 8. The idea is we are supposed to see who marks him or, if he is joined by another strong rider, to give him a shot at the long break. This involves blocking.

At some point (around 5~6 of 8) were are supposed to attack and form a break with our 4 riders who already have points and myself. My job then becomes to a) drive the break and/or b) shed the unwanted cargo.

Pretty ambitious, non?

Any bets that the entire plan last about 1/2 lap?

My point, how you often find yourself hashing out elaborate strategies (fantasies) only to have absolutely everyone forget it all one the gun goes 'pop'?

This is pretty much what happens with most of my current 'team mates' each and every bloody race. A few guys are savy (and manage results) but the dunderheads...

McTufferton

Are you guys communicating well during the race?

I speak from very limited experience, but we've conjured up grand plans only to have them fall apart after 1/2 lap because no one communicated when we were hammering.

Conversely, we've won races when we the communication was good.

JPradun

What?

You're making a detailed plan when other people and teams have their own plans. Going from the gun with 4 of your guys, when the rest of the field is still fresh, is a great way to burn out your team, ensuring no one gets on the podium.

saratoga

Check out his location. That might have something to do with it

Team tactics have rarely ever worked for us no matter how many times we've played it out in our heads. "Okay, you're going to lead XYZ out, got it?" "Yep." Then during the race, the damn guy we designated to take the sprint passes the lead out man with 1k to go and promptly craps out as everyone else jumps.

YMCA

Dopolina, keep them cool.
IOW - your plan has merit, but only works if they have some patience and don't burn out after a few pulls.
That's where you come in using your big voice to lead the charge and squelch the dunderheads.
Will there be any crosswinds?

kaNUK

Could work ...if you have strong enough riders on your team to effectively control the race, and with enough racing experience to avoid overextending themselves. I second the communication-during-the-race comment. Even the best prepared plan should be flexible. While it's preferable to be calling the shots you also need to be able to react to the unforeseen.

kaNUK

MDcatV

if the goal is to win this race, I love it.

but, it's my understanding that your team goal is to qualify 6 for the nat'l champ event, correct?

how many racers is your team entering in this race?

I'm assuming that the 4 early guys are not intending to finish, that rabbitt's only going to stretch things or to go for the win, and you're there to help drive things late also without individual ambitions. If you only have 6 racers, I'm not sure how the team strategy accomplishes what I understand the team's mission.

Also - the way I read it, you guys have the 1st six laps mapped, but ya better get those last 2 figured out

good luck! it's kind of intimidating commenting on the strategy you put out there Bob, because you race on a higher level than most of us BF.net hacks.

any team strategy i've been part of has always been fairly loose since too much detail rarely works.

substructure

Our team's goal setting:
(A few minutes before the race)

So ... who's feeling good today?
I feel pretty good.
Cool. Try and get into a break.
OK. What are you guys gonna do?
Hold on and try not to get dropped.
Cool.

Fat Boy

What's the over/under on the bet?

Elaborate strategies, yep. Do they work, rarely. It seems like everyone loses 50 IQ points by putting a leg over the bike.

I don't know how many times this year my teammates have tried to 'help' me while in a break and only succeeded in pulling the pack up to the break. The last time it happened, I really let the guy have it, teammate or no. Honestly, how stupid can you be?

WCroadie

You need to have plan B and plan C so you know exactly what to do if plan A does not work. But don't forget, there will be other teams in the race and they may have plans of their own. You guys need to control the race.

You also need to have guys who are willing to work for others on your team and blow themselves up for others. On my team we have 7 guys who make up our cat3 team, first year we are all racing together, we had plans before every race, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. In our biggest race of the year our plan worked perfectly, in several other races it worked perfectly, in some we messed up because we had no plan B and other teams had their own plans.

The 2 key factors are: 1 - we have a few guys like myself who are willing to kill themselves so other teammates can get the glory. I am 35, 1st year cat3, 3rd year racing, and am never going to be a 2, I have no problem killing myself and finishing mid-pack so our 18yo stud can win.

2 - you need to have guys who can deliver when others work for them. I have all the confidence in our 18yo kid, that he will deliver at the end, and he did many times this year. When team tactics work it makes racing so much fun. When other teams comment to us after the race that we totally dominated that race, it makes racing fun.


Good luck!

carpediemracing 

It's unclear what the goal is for certain tactics.

For example, why have 4 guys go bananas at the beginning of the race? And how would you do it? Launch at the gun? Do a TTT? Or launch a rider at a time? What if something goes away?

Also, usually the pace at the beginning of the race can get high anyway. In other words, won't other guys go anyway? Or are there significant course features at the beginning of the circuit (climb, lots of narrow turns, wide open crosswind, etc)? Or is it the case that you can burn off a lot of guys doing that? If so, are they the ones that will count at the end, or are you just shedding dead weight early?

For example, in fast races (p123 etc - and I'm a 3), I may get shed early on. It wouldn't be a good tactic to use guys to shed me earlier simply because I'll get shed later on my own. However, guys in for the hunt at the end will not get shed at the beginning.

The only thing pacemaking will do at the beginning is shed guys like me early (who won't make it anyway) and tire your own guys out.

It might be better (albeit harder to explain) to have the 4 guys follow moves, and if the moves get too unwieldy or uncooperative, to blow them apart. That should expose the strong guys left at the front (hopefully your teammates among them), and those strong guys can work to consolidate the break. Then, after the gap gets to a certain point (minute? dunno how long that circuit is), your teammates ease. You're now set up for a bridge attempt, with a teammate or two already up there.

Having a guy go into the headwind is great, but how do you know only one other guy will cross? What if two go? Or four? (again, dunno local dynamics, but it could be that there are only 10 or 15 true threats, or there could be 80). If a break goes around here (as in, "in Connecticut"), it has to contain certain riders to make it. If it doesn't, the chances of it coming back on its own are pretty high. Can your rabbit rider solo at 25+ mph for 6 laps? If not, why launch him?

It's better to have guys in moves who are waiting while in the move, rather than have to bridge up later. If breaks go, your guys should follow and not pull after a certain gap opens up. If a chase goes, then they should work to help the chase (as long as there aren't too many threats in the chase/break). You may end up with 4 guys in the break this way.

This would be a way of hedging your bets, but reducing your riders' strength for the finale.

You can gamble differently. If your riders are strong, you can waste the field by waiting until they're tired before making a move. If you play things conservative for, say, 5 laps, sit in, do absolutely the minimum required to stay in the race, then you and your team start launching things 6 laps into the race, it'll be much more effective. I figure the last 20% of a race is one of the harder parts of a race, and the last 10% is really tough. If you can gather your forces for the critical portions of the race, you can blow it apart at that point.

As an example of using the team too early, think of TMobile when they had all those guys in the top 10 in the Tour (2006 I think). They pushed the pace two climbs from the end, shed a lot of guys (including some of their own), and killed themselves for the last climb. When the big moves went on the last climb, they couldn't respond.

If you're ineligible to qualify, then I'd say that you're the one to do all the work initially. Drag everyone around. Chase threats. Launch your teammates into counter attacks. Etc. You may be the best tactician around, so you can monitor the front, read the others, and tell guys when to go. If someone counters, you may tell one guy to go. If no one is going, but the field looks like they're hurting, you might tell two of your guys to go together. Usually one or two guys will go too, but that's okay - you're just stacking the odds in your favor, and those other guys will help share the workload.

I played that role in a race a while ago. I was at the front, monitoring for the team. It was a 3-4 race, and I'd tell guys to stick near me, and then if things looked good, told them to attack (or bridge to a chase or whatever). My goal was to bridge up at some point, but I was always hurting when I had a chance to go, and in the end I ended up missing out on the break. We ended up with 4 guys in an 8 man break, and the break won the race.

Problem was the teammates in the break were not used to being off the front - they had rarely attacked at "good times" before so they rarely/never broke away. For a bunch of them it was the first or second time they were in a break. I should have stopped once the break got a minute+, but instead I raced in the field, trying to discourage chases. Ultimately the break lapped us, literally with a lap to go. I really screwed up because I didn't know the break was so close. I should have sacrificed myself to get the guys to the front in the sprint, but they were cooked and all their teammates were up front blocking.

Ultimately we got 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th (!). What a disaster. Afterwards it was clear that the teammates in the break were sort of panicking, taking big pulls, etc., when in fact they should have been sitting in, maybe one or two guys skipping pulls altogether (I'd have chosen guys who were strong but had poor form so they looked tired whenever they pulled).

As far as planning ahead, I've successfully laid out plans before a race, and the team has executed them well. There was a period of time where I'd have a bunch of the guys come to the shop. I'd pull out the side of a bike box (big piece of cardboard) and the guys would groan and say something about, oh, no, he has a plan.

I'd sketch the course on the cardboard, list riders, their roles, and what they'd do. It was usually pretty straight forward - I'd pair up riders (think Top Gun - you always fly with a wingman). I'd try to match their strengths (2 TT guys together, or two pack savy sprinters).

If I had some bad matches, I'd try and get opposites (TT guy and sprinter, or sprinter and climber, etc), with the understanding that one of them would be sacrificing for the other. So the TT guy would pull a lot for the sprinter in the first pair, but the sprinter would use his pack savy to get the climber in position for climbs.

The pairs would respond to attacks, so first big attack, the first pair go. Second, second pair. Usually I had 4 pairs, but more would be good. One pair (me and my leadout) were reserved for the finish. I protested against this, thinking I should work more, but my leadout man, who was actually the team captain, said that since breaks rarely work, the chances of the race coming down to me would be high. Therefore I shouldn't be doing anything, and since he was my leadout man, neither would he. Except in emergencies.

Once we got close to "our" mark, the leadout guy would take over, keeping things together for a few laps while everyone caught their breath. Usually this was about 10 laps/miles to go.

Then, with 8 laps/miles to go, we'd start launching attacks. The guys who could plug away all day at 25 mph would go first. If they got caught the next pair would go, at 6 laps/miles left. Those two would be a bit faster but not have the diesel ability. Then 2 laps/miles later, the last pair would go. Usually this last pair was mismatched, i.e. the jumpier guy would launch a TT guy and hope for the best. They'd go at 3-4 laps/miles to go.

Then, if things were still together, we'd set up for the sprint. Anyone left would drive the pace, short pulls, trying to keep things strung out. The first two pairs of riders (who were more TT types anyway) would do as much work as possible. This would go on for 2-3 laps. Then, with a lap to go, the leadout guy would finally get out of the sheltered position we'd been in, drag me to the front, and launch me.

The best we got was 3rd? 4th? I forget. It was in Montague, MA. I ended up with a pedal in my front wheel on the last lap, and my legs were cooked from the pace being so high for the last 8 laps (lol - because of my teammates). I couldn't win the sprint, I was lucky to maintain the place I got. But it was a lot of fun, really exciting, and it was a great way to approach a race.

It was also really hard to maintain that cohesiveness, with all those guys. It lasted, oh, 2 months? and then stuff started to disintegrate. It didn't help that we were all crit type guys, so we'd have to skip weekends where there were no crits (back then there weren't training crits during the week and usually only one or two races each weekend).

cdr

PhillyRoadie

cdr I don't know where you get the free time, but it's possible I've learned as much about racing from your long posts as from actually racing. Thanks.

SpongeDad

In sports (not cycling specifically), it seems the only planning that we ever did well was the very beginning (just go hard), the very end (just go hard). The best I ever saw for the middle was "don't go nuts"

Psimet2001 

I love cdr's stuff but honestly I never have time to read it all the way.

Team tactics - That's all any of us have been trying out all year. Learned a lot.

1. Everyone thinks I have some miraculous formula and looks to me for direction. (BWAHGAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...that was funny).

2. There's always a lot of "you feel good?" and a lot of "uhh...I feel OK" as our own guys sandbag to each other because they don't want the responsibility of being "the guy".

3. The times we've had good plans - ones similar to what bDop called out - they've blown up the second another team takes control.

4. We've gotten some basic plans to work but in the end it becomes about fitness...either you have it or you don't.

We have a lot of wins this year. A lot of big ones. The only time we've had team tactics go well is during practice crits, etc. The wins in the big events have been because of great moves by individuals who have the fitness, natural ability, or the ability to read the situation.....not because the team set them up.

In general though I think we've helped set up some situations. We play for the favorites. Help them out whenever we can. Call out information they might not know. Chase down stuff that is dangerous but they don't need to be involved in, etc....we just don't go in with elaborate plans much anymore.

It's more like - "OK,...if you're there on the last lap and he's still there too and looking good then nail it in turn 3. sit up when you get 1/2 way down the straight and then he'll launch when everyone hesitates....if you're not there then uh....have fun."

Voodoo76

Interesting. This used to be the way to get to Nats here in the US. Made for some fun State RR's as all the fast dudes would come home for a few days of fun.

As for the strategy, I tend to agree wiht CDR that forcing an early selection works in the favor of all strong riders, not just yours. And it's gonna cause others to just sit back and enjoy the ride if one team is too agressive early on. You are setting up some good counter opportunities.

Mark good riders, start a few breaks and see who you get. A good mix or numbers in a break go with it, otherwise reload and try again. 2 in a break and win the field sprint.

TwoShort

The Prussian General Moltke the Elder was speaking of 19th century land warfare, but in any case summed it up well:

"No battle plan survives contact with the enemy"

carpediemracing 

For almost a year I wasn't working. Then last week I broke my pelvis, so I'm not working. In fact, because I hurt my shoulder, I can barely do anything. Typing is one of the few things I can do. And the last day or two I've felt a bit less foggy so I'm typing.

I also type relatively quickly, and I read relatively quickly. But that's relative, as they say.

I'm glad that you're learning something from my posts. It's good to know that someone's reading them

cdr

mollusk

I have no idea about the relative strengths and weaknesses of Bob's team versus the opposition. Any "winning" strategy will want the race to evolve in such a way that the strengths of the opposing teams are not that important and the strengths of my team are highlighted. Is Bob's team full of strong time trialers and not so good at sprinting?

In any event this shapes up for a real sufferfest for Bob without any rewards except those bestowed by a very grateful team.

Bob Dopolina 

We are all on the same sponsored team (CKT) but for this race we are riding for our respective city/counties.

Think of how the World's works. It's like that.

We have 18 guys from CKT. Spending 4 from the gun is the best way these guys can contribute.

Bob Dopolina 

It is a weird triangle shaped course. The long base (Start/Finish) has a cross or cross-tail wind and then we turn right into another cross/head wind section and then bend around onto a head wind section. The next turn is back onto the base with about 4km to go to the start/finish.

It is near the Taiwan Straight so the winds are strong and pretty consistent. I am thinking that I will go to the front and help the 4 guys take it above 50kph before we hit the first right hander into the wind and set up the first attack.

That should be enough to give him at least a small gap.

I think the biggest problem is that several of the guys are in their 2nd or 3rd year and get really excited. They're like puppies once the pace goes up and they just can't control themselves.

I just hope none of them pees on my shoes this time.

Bob Dopolina 

Lots of reasonable comments here.

This is like the BF twilight zone!

The reason we want to crank it up from the gun is to shed the dead weight early. Sections of the course are rough and the corners are weird so we don't want anyone going down because some newb was on the rivet and swerved around some speedbumps/manhole cover/shadow on the road. This is often a problem here so this tactic is pretty standard fare. It's just safer to be driving at the front early.

I also agree that having a Plan B and C are needed. I am going to work this out with individual riders before the race. There are some weird politics at play here (since I will form a new team next year and 5 guys are going with me) that I need to pay attention to.

We've seen the start list and know who we are racing against. We should be able to control the race as we have numbers, familiarity with the course and a few of the bigger teams won't come to this race. It's a bit of a travel for them and, since it's a selection race and although they are still allowed to ride, there is no prize money.

I'm kind of hoping that a few riders go across the our rabbit. He'll work them over pretty good (former National Team guy - smart) before he sits on them. If the right guys go I'd like to see them stay away for the win. I'll work for that.

Tactically we don't need to win this race to benefit our riders. There are 6 slots for the city and 6 slots for the county. We have 2 guys from the city we want to qualify and 4 guys from the county. All they need to do is to be either one of the top 6 city guys or top 6 county guys across the line to go to Nationals.

This is what is making it interesting for me.

The idea is that we shed and identify early. Then we launch attacks to force a selection or establish a break (with me in it). Then I set about shedding as many dangerous riders as I can. My team mates will point them out to me in case I am unsure.

This should pretty much trash me. I'm hoping just to finish in the front group by the end because my family will be there and they haven't seen me race in a few seasons (well my son is 2 1/2 so I don't think he remembers the race I took him to last year).

I'll report back tomorrow on how things played out.

mollusk

How do you do this if the dangerous riders have a teammate in the break? I know that you are a strong rider, but shedding two teammates is asking a lot!

Bob Dopolina 

It's a bit of a numbers game.

I can pick one guy and gap him off the back a few times. Or I can pin him at the front and make him think that we are riding away from the group. Hopefully he commits and I sit on.

If he is really strong then there isn't much I can do and I move on to the next guy. I just have to shed enough riders to get our guys to Nationals.

Like I said it is an interesting situation and should be more about the head than the legs.

mollusk

Pick the weaker guy first because he is there to protect the stronger guy. If you try to do this to the stronger guy first the weaker guy will probably drop back to help and you might end up in a really bad situation where you are gapped with two opposing teammates to work you over.

Bob Dopolina 

Then I sit on them and I've just removed an entire team.