Increasing top sprint speed...form, etc...
 

I have searched and read everything I can find but still have a few specific questions about sprinting:

I have been riding about a year and a half and seem to have a decent jump, but I can't get above 34-35 mph on my sprints.

I like a big gear - 53-12 or 53-13 and it is hard for me to shift during the sprint because I have an old steel frame with bar end shifters (new bike this winter I hope) so I tend to shift once right before launching.

I know a lot of the advice calls for spinning faster and this is one of the things I intend to work on this winter, but at 6'3 175lbs and mostly legs I naturally prefer a lower cadence.

Also I have recently started lifting the front wheel off the ground for about the first five pedal strokes after my jump - so I am guessing I need to move my upper body forward. My lower body feels about right, quads just brushing the nose of the saddle.

so questions:

1. at 34 mph is accelerating more about being aero or spinning faster?
2. would a longer stem or non ergo bars help keep the front wheel down?
3. what drills will specifically help with top speed?
4. any tips on the transition from standing to sitting? As soon as I sit I can no longer accelerate.

Thanks

-cgb

Lifting the front wheel?

Gotdayum!

really long and good thread about this some months back so I would try a search

thanks, i read that thread...didn't find exactly what i was looking for.

Let me rephrase the question:

last year I could sprint 28mph. I lost weight, gained strength and practiced. Now I can hit 34, but have plateaued.

So above that do I need even more power (squats, intervals, etc) or is it more of a form issue (getting lower, more aero, while maintaining the same power)?

This may not be advice I can get on the internet, but I don't know many racers to get advice in person.

To go faster, you need both power and form.

Provided you are do not have perfect form when you sprint (think Cavendish), then that is probably where you will see the largest gains in terms of top speed.

Of course you always can/will get stronger, so don't stop doing sprint workouts from time to time to keep those biochemical pathways in your body stimulated and adapting.

THe problem is, once you become reasonably fit (which you certainly are by now at 34 mph), then you start to get diminishing returns with increasing power output.

If I were you I would try to find an experienced training partern who can watch you sprint and criticize your form. Unless you can manage to post a video link of you sprinting, it will be hard for anyone here to offer you advice.

Keep at it :thumb:



On the form side of things, If I were you I would just experiment. Experiment with when you get your aero tuck relative to your initial jump. I have found that I can get faster if I start to get aero immediately after 5 or so seconds of jumping hard even if it means a reduction in power output.

http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...sprinting.html

about two years ago, after reading this blog post by a user on here, carpediemracing, i went out to a stretch of road in my neighborhood in the bronx - a nice, gentle downhill to get up to speed, a long abandoned flat, and a half mile loop back to the start. once a week i'd go and do ten or fifteen sprints. i saw my consistent sprint speed go up about 3mph.

during this year's season, i got some good results by working on low-gear sprints to improve legspeed, though without a highfallutin' computer i can't tell if that plays out in increased rpms during race sprints.

changes to your form and your gear might be helpful but there's gonna be nothing quite like regular hard training at it.

If you're pulling the front wheel off the ground, it's because of bad pedaling form rather than fore/aft position (unless you're WAY back). Your arms wouldn't have anything pulling them up if you hadn't sent your torso flying up. Torsos generally fly up when you push into the bottom of the stroke (where the pedal can't get away from you any more), or when you push way too tall of a gear to start.

Start your sprints as close to 100rpm as you can. Make sure you're not stabbing at the bottom of the pedal stroke.

Thanks for sharing the helpful info.

OK the too tall of a gear makes sense because when it happened to me today it was worse than usual and it was from a slower leadout than usual when I jumped (maybe 25 instead of 28) but I was still in the 53/12 because with the bar end friction shifters I tend to just go all the way down instead of risking being in between gears.

But can you explain the peddling part a bit more, ie what I should be doing. I have not thought about form much up to now, I just try to rip the bike apart, so I am not sure exactly what I am doing with my upper body. I thought it was relatively still, but that hasn't been what I was focusing on.

thanks

-cgb

^simply put: he's talking about spinning.

the slight movements of your torso are caused by a tremendous amount of force: you trying to 1) rip your bars apart and 2) thrust your feet to the ground (mashing the big gear).

What WR is suggesting is to spin up to speed rather than mash. When mashing down, on the pedal you are simultaneously pulling up on the bars, so to keep your torso relatively steady. You are pulling up, but not keeping your torso steady. The reason you are pulling your front wheel up off the ground, is because you are not strong enough to sprint in the 12 (few non-elite or p-1s are!) So, by spinning up to speed rather than simply mashing your toughest gear you will go faster. All these things go together: spinning, keeping torso low, rocking the bike, pulling/pushing, head up...

My best sprint is usually out of the 14t cog, anything taller than that I'm just not strong enough. Right now.

you are in a tough spot, so get a new bike. Sram "sprint shifting" will blow your mind apart.

That makes sense. Maybe I will adjust the limit on my rear derailleur to keep me out of the 12 for a while. That will force me to spin more.

Thanks for the advice all.

I'm not sure if you're racing or planning on racing? For a final sprint you'll need to bump it up 3-4 mph to be competitive in a field sprint in Cat 5s, maybe 5-6 mph for Cat 4s/3s. Long leadouts in training races are usually 34-35 mph, and just before a decent Cat 3 sprint the field can be moving along at 38-39 mph. This should be attainable with some training and group riding. Group riding is key to learning how to go fast, no matter what my blog post says. Group riding teaches you your shortcomings, teaches you to suffer, and motivates you to work on specific parts of your riding.

I'd add a link on bar end shifters:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...for-crits.html

If you can't shift the bar end during a sprint, that's kind of normal if you have uncut bars. Cut them down as I describe and you'll be able to shift up or down during a sprint. I'd recommend cutting aluminum bars. I have no idea how carbon bars handle cutting and internal pressure from a shifter.

If you have the little plasti-rubber cover on the shifter, take it off. It deadens the shift feel.

If you have Shimano bar ends, use a left side shift mount upside down on the right side. You'll have to file and stuff because the various key holes don't line up, but the Shimano bar end puts the lever too far down from the bar. Using the left side upside down will raise the pivot point of the bar end, putting it right into your hand. Or you can take the easy way out like me and use friction Suntour bar ends (I now use Ergo levers).

I stand by the link posted above, and I have other sprinting thoughts on the blog. After all, it's "Sprinter Della Casa", i.e. "House Sprinter" (kind of like the house wine in a restaurant). My friend named the blog that way for a reason - I can't do anything else on a bike. (No, I didn't name the blog, no I didn't even set it up, my friend cajoled me into doing it, even sent me the login page and username/pw).

cdr, aka SDC

I agree with everything except your numbers CDR. Sprints in 5 races aren't 40 mph, at least not from what I remember (I wasn't usually in the field sprints, I was usually off the back by then).

Thanks CDR, I have already spent hours reading through your blog in the past. The speeds you talk about are difficult for me to comprehend because the best leadout I have had was probably 30 mph (and I had trouble coming around).

I am planning to race next season, Cat 5. The problem is a lack of riders where I live in eastern NC. There is one fast tuesday night ride during the spring/summer, but we usually only get 8 to 15 guys so the speed doesnt ramp up above 28 mph much. Guys win those sprints at 38.

And the weekend rides are smaller (sat) and slower (sun).

New (used) bike will fix the shifter problem, but I will try your advice on swapping the bases when I replace my cables.

Thanks

-cgb

1. depends on your power to size. 34 mph is a fairly decent solo sprint speed. you should be able to hit a higher speed coming out of a draft.
2. you're starting on too big of a gear. get some real shifters. they make a huge difference for sprinting.
3. 140 rpm drills. motopacing.
4. once you sit you should work on maintaining the same rpm until you cross the line. if you're finding yourself sitting too early before the line, then you're starting your sprint too early. a good distance is about 1000 feet out. i find 1/4 mile out my max.

if you're on their wheel when you start their sprint, you can hit that speed too.

Yep, that covers the cadence thing, but when I'm talking about pushing past the bottom of the stroke, that's different.

In general, we push down on the pedals. There's a minor amount of pulling through the bottom or whatever B.S. we feed ourselves about pedaling in circles, but really, we're pushing down for anything significant. 2nd place would be pulling straight up, but that's not anywhere near half the power.

So, when we push down, the pedal is going in a circle. If we start too early, the pedal won't go down at our push rate, so our body will go up. Same thing if we hold the pedal stroke too long: you'll have a leg speed thing going, but the foot goes through this cornice at the bottom, and the force ends up going out the top of the leg instead of into the pedal. Both of these push our bodies up from the hips.

Once our body is going up, it will try to take the bike along for the ride, resulting in a front or rear wheel hop on each pedal stroke.

But you know how fast the sprints were?

CDR is bang on the money.

You're saying 37-38 for a Cat 5 sprint, 39-40 mph for Cat 4 and somewhere north of that for Cat 3?

Honestly, that's a bit high for the races I've done, CDR. A solo 34 mph sprint (no wind, no road slope) is competitive for Cat 5 and if you can solo to 36, you're OK in Cat 4. Tack on another mph or 2 for Cat 3. The rest is all about where you place yourself in the field and what kind of lead-out/draft you can get.

It takes something like 800-850 watts to just maintain a speed of 38 mph. You're not going to find many people who can hold that level of output for more than 30 seconds or so. Any Cat 3 that can put out that type of power prior to launching a sprint ain't gonna be a Cat 3 for long, that's for damn sure.

I freely admit that CDR is a significantly better sprinter than I am. It's completely possible that when he was in the lower ranks, he was racing tougher guys that I am/have. The numbers I've listed are what I've seen on downloads after the races. YMMV.

First off, 34-35 + 3-4 mph = 37-39 mph. I chose the "3-4 mph" very carefully because I think that 40 mph is a winning sprint in Cat 5s, not just competitive.

I don't have power graphs etc from Cat 5 races, but I have ridden with guys that placed regularly in the top few of a Cat 5 race before moving up to Cat 4 and ultimately to Cat 3 (I think - we raced together a few times but now I'm not sure if he was a 4 in a 3-4 race). I've known the guy for 20 years, he raced well as a Cat 3 fifteen years ago. The thing that shocked him was how bad his sprint was. I'd lead him out at 33-34 mph and he'd come off my wheel. When he started hanging on, thinking about coming around me, he started breaking into the lower 10 of a Cat 5 sprint. I don't think he ever won a race in his second racing career.

Anyway, regarding speed: the Plainville helmet cam clips I have (under sprinterdellacasa on YouTube), I lead out the sprint in both finishes. Both times I'm doing about 35 mph, and trust me, that's no sprint. I'm seated and in the 2007 one I'm on the tops sitting as upright as I can (to give Secondo a semblance of a draft).

I was very disappointed in my first leadout as I didn't drop everyone. The second one was better - only one guy stayed on my wheel and he won. He was a rival, but that's okay, he's a good guy I think.

If you're in the field behind me, you're just "sitting around, waiting for sh*t to happen", to quote bdop. I tell my friends/teammates that leadouts need to be faster than that - 38 mph would be nice, 40 would better. This gets you into good position for a 3-4 race, maybe a lower key 3 only race.

cdr

...not true.... :/ but, a great thread for me too. Thanks guys.

Really? 850W for 30 seconds, and then sprinting?

My 30 second power is about 1000W, IIRC, and I'd have zero sprint after that. Anyone who did would easily be able to kill a Cat 3 field (since I was able to occasionally kill Cat 3 fields on 30"-60" power without the trailing sprint).

clearly I need to work on my breakaways :P

I'm surprised that no one else has mentioned this yet. 34 mph solo with no leadout is nothing to sneeze at. I'm good for a few mph over my max solo speed when I come out of a draft. So is anyone. Last year, when I was in good shape, I was pushing 34-35 solo, and I was able to place pretty consistently in Cat 5-level sprints (Collegiate C and D), if I got that far.

Remember also that sprinting is about more than just top speed. There are, to oversimplify, essentially two types of sprinters: jumpers and speeders. Guys with a good jump (CDR is a perfect example) have very high instantaneous and five-sec power; they accelerate very quickly. Guys with good top speed are able to go very, very fast when they get wound up, and also must have good endurance for the amount of power that it takes to go that fast. A really good sprinter must have elements of both skills, but most people (including those good sprinters) are biased one way or the other. Very rarely, you get someone with the jackpot: a huge jump and top speed, with the endurance to take it to the line. Jumpers are favored on short and uphill sprints; speeders tend to do better on longer sprints, flat and downhill finishes.

My point is that, if you have a great jump, hitting 34 mph solo might not be as slow as it seems to you. Something else worth point out is that having a 34 mph solo sprint might be enough. First of all, as has been pointed out, that's not too bad. Not a guaranteed race winner or anything, but better than a lot of Cat 5s. Timing and positioning are incredibly important in sprinting. There are plenty of guys out there with great power who never win sprints because they don't know how to position themselves or when to jump. Likewise, there are mediocre sprinters who win races because they're smart sprinters. Make sure that you don't neglect this part of your training if you intend to race. If you aren't planning to race, well... why worry about sprint speed at all?

OK, which part of the quote was not true? Not being defensive or anything, I just want to know. This might be a good learning opportunity for me.