Devil

I'm not sure if you're talking about me or just speaking hypothetically, but I'll say it again. I have never used steroids. I haven't even used prohormones.

live311 - it is pretty different from pro cycling, but it all boils down to what Smoothie said - results. I will explain a bit, however.

I don't make big money fighting right now. The most I've ever made for a single fight was $1800 - $900 to show, $900 to win. The only reason I'm able to train like I do is because I inherited quite a bit of money from a deceased grandparent, I don't have the added difficulty of trying to balance a steady job with training and fighting like most people I know.

If you want to make good money, you basically have two choices, aside from fighting three times a month all over the world (which some people do, and are quite good at - Jeremy Horn, for instance; I believe his record is something like 134-10-13 win/loss/draw): the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) in the US, and PrideFC in Japan. The UFC doesn't sign long term contracts anymore, usually one fight deals, and you have to be exciting and win to be asked back. New guys at the UFC typically get three and three, or $3k to show and $3k to win. The longer you're with the company, the more money you make, especially if you're a big name exciting fighter. Guys like Randy Couture, Vitor Belfort, Tito Ortiz, Ken Shamrock, and Chuck Liddell make $120,000 to $200,000 a fight. The UFC tests for steroids in all title fights and another random fight on the card.

Pride is much different. Japanese fans know the whole game - stand up as well as grappling. Fighters are more respected in Japan, and all that they ask is that you give it your all - win or lose. Pride fighters typically make more money than UFC fighters. For a first fight in Pride, you may make $60k to $100k, and it is not unheard of to be making over a million dollars a fight with them. The reason for this is because the sport is absolutely huge in Japan. There was a Pride event in 2002 that sold out an outdoor arena with over 100,000 people there. Regular attendance is around 50 to 60,000 people. Pride does not test for steroids.

As far as fighting in the USA goes, if you're not a big name then media pressure is basically non-existant. Pressure from sponsors is more apparent, but usually sponsors are good to the fighters. Some sponsors are better than others, too. Evan Tanner, the #3 ranked middleweight in the world, recently thanked his sponsor for basically paying his mortgage so that he was able to train for his fight at the UFC this past June. Of course, sponsors expect results because in most cases, the more good results you have, the more exposure for the sponsors because you're able to fight at bigger named promotions on the national and international level.

Pressure from the media in Japan is significantly larger, although I really can't speak beyond hat. I've never fought in Japan, although I know a guy that fights in Pride, and that's all he's really said about that aspect.

Regarding steroids in MMA: obviously, not everyone is on something. I didn't mean to paint a picture that every MMA fighter is a steroid injecting maniac, because it isn't like that. I just happen to know quite a few guys who juice. The number of guys I know who aren't on something is much greater, however. There are even a few fight teams that have a zero tolerance policy on steroids. Team Quest in Oregon comes to mind. This is a team formed and comprised of some of the best wrestlers the USA has produced in recent years. Randy Couture, Matt Lindland (Olympic silver medalist at the 2000 games), and Dan Henderson (three time Olympian) are the core of this team. Anyone found using steroids in this camp is kicked out pretty quickly. They're arguably the best team in the world right now.

Hope that helped.

holicow - what's your opinion on people who use steroids for personal use (ie guys who just want to get huge)?

holicow

"Anyone found"..That's the key here. How hard do you think they really look? Do you think they really want to find out? Besides, it's good PR for the team to pay lip service against doping. I am just being cynical, of course, but I would be surprised if that is not the case.

Oh, by the way, misuse of anabolic steroids is also against the law, as if that matters to anyone.


I couldn't care less. They are only cheating themselves, and that is their choice. I only hope they are informed of the possible consequences.

Aren't there any pro cyclists here? What do you think?

Devil

You have a lot of nerve. I know these guys personally, none of them are on steroids. They don't pay lip service against doping. They don't go around saying that anyone on steroids is removed from the team to everybody that will listen. It was told to me in a gym over a year ago. If you knew these guys, you'd know what I'm talking about.

I don't pretend to know about doping in the pro peloton. You should follow suit and keep your mouth shut regarding things you know nothing about.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the members of Team Quest. They are the epitome of professionalism in sports, and their work ethic is unmatched. This is the second time in my conversation with you in this thread that I've had to hold myself back from insulting you and your intelligence. I've tried to give a perspective on this whole situation that you people don't get to hear every day, and you have continually insulted my peers and I.

I'm done here.

countryrider

You know the guys on Team Quest, but some of the other teams might turn the other way a few times. I know a few guys who fight ISKA full contact bouts, a few K-1 fighters, and a lot of local guys who have made a dent in the midwest. There are guys out there who juice. It's a fact. There's no way around it because everyone wants to be the best. When you get older and start to lose that edge, you want a way to get it back. In fighting it'll be more glaring than in a lot of other sports. As you age and the fighters get younger, quicker, and bigger you need an edge. The only guy I have met that I will say legitimately came back time after time even after he turned 40 is Benny "the Jet" Urqidez. I've been in martial arts since I was six years old, I took second to the a kid who was the intercontinental forms champion, and I beat the one who became champion after him. I know about the competition, and I know what you see. I've been around professional fighters, I trained with a couple. In pro sports those that use enhancers have two choices. They can go the steroid route and risk getting caught, or they can go on $1000+ protein and supplement packages. There's no way to avoid the stigma that surrounds a sport in which people have been caught doping. What's going to happen if Maurice Greene wins the 100 meter dash in the Olympics and then the guy who takes second place was on steroids? People are going to think that Greene must have been juicing because he beat a guy who was juicing. The same thing happens with Armstrong. He's beating people who are doping so he must be doping. Why can't we just take these guys on their word unless they get caught lying. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I have no doubt that Team Quest doesn't dope. I've seen them in action, and I know their policies, I completely trust that none of them dope. Until tests prove otherwise I will continue to believe that they don't dope. The same with Armstrong and the other world-class riders who have yet to prove positive.

2Rodies

I wasn't reffering to you inparticular but the greater "you".

holicow

That is exactly the attitude that I am referring to. Everybody shut up and pretend it doesn't exist. The "pro peloton" is the last place that reforms will originate, unless someone really makes a bigger stand. See ya! Good luck against the dopers.

My dad, who knows nothing about cycling, recently asked me if Armstrong dopes. Actually, his words were "uses drugs." This is from the constant allegations, and news stories about them surrounding the TdF. This is the publicity given to professional cycling, and is the reality of public perception.

Now, does anyone else still think it isn't a problem? Are you satisfied with that?

holicow

From the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) chief, regarding track and field:



This is from a story regarding the new test for HGH that is now available. Sorry, cheaters.

link:


CNN story, HGH test

duracann

No one should use any performance enhancing drugs in any sport, period! Technology is taking the fun out of sports and I wish people wouldn't resort to cheating so they can win. My wishes are not going to happen though *sigh*. What will this evolve into though? Devil, how would you like it if someone used a gun in your matches? That is what cyclist feels when racing against a cheater. Doping can make the hard fair training of other cyclists feel pointless when a cheater rolls to the start line. Following the rules is the only way to truly win(even if no one finds out)

Smoothie104

"EPO, growth hormone, any designer steroid we know about, we now have a test for."

That we KNOW about.....

This is good news, if its true, and if the test works. Problem is, the cheats are always a step or 2 ahead.

Also, the next olympics we will probably have athletes who have used DNA and Gene Therapy to alter themselves genetically, and how will that be detected?

holicow

They will always be ahead. That's just the reality of human nature. But they will never know when testing will catch up with whatever they are using. If the penalties were swifter and more severe, then the temptation will be much less, eh?


Where do you see this? That's a little far-fetched. Although a possibility sometime in the future, it's highly unlikely anytime soon seeing as highly funded research on gene therapy for actual illnesses is still not yielding significant success, as of yet. I know a bit about molecular biology, by the way.... Anyway, standard DNA identification techniques could spot gene insertion rather easily.

I'll ask again, where are the pro racers on this subject? Surely there are one or two on this board.

Devil

I'm not talking about cycling, you fool. You disrespected me and the men at Team Quest without knowing a goddamned thing about either. Get that through your head. I didn't tell you to shut up about doping in cycling. I told you to keep your mouth shut about Team Quest, because upon hearing about them you immediately insinuate that they must be pro-steroid and pay lip service to those who use them. Nobody on that team uses steroids, you insolent dolt.

How old are you, five? Read what I say instead of reading what you want to read. Take your blinders off for a second and step away from your own little "crusade against doping" (oh, how noble it is) and read what I said just now. I'm asking for you not to insult ME and my PEERS (Team Quest).

Smoothie104

https://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...302EDT0288.DTL

https://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...c21doping.html

https://www.sciencentral.com/articles...e_id=218392277

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4282866/


A lot of these scientists say that more than half of the calls and emails they get are from athletes and coaches, Seems like its only a matter of time....

Devil

As an aside, I'll be gone until Sunday afternoon, so when I don't respond, that's why.

Have a good weekend.

holicow

Nice...Are you going to threaten to beat me up, next? I'm an easy target right now as a result of a crash.

Look back...I only pointed out that you believe that cheating by doping is acceptable. I sure didn't call you names. I also made it clear that my questioning your "peers" was speculation, and questioning their position should be expected in current atmosphere.

Please explain why the views of someone who is not a pro racer are not of value. As I have pointed out again and again, the public opinion of cycling (along with other sports) is not a positive one in the context of drug use. And remember where the money comes from in the end.

holicow

Interesting, but with a little background knowledge, it is clear that this particular "gene enhancement" is not anywhere near possible application. This is barely even experimental, and viral gene vectors are a pretty scary proposition outside the context of treatment of life-threatening illnesses. They randomly insert their genes, and cancer as a result is common, or other genetic problems. The logistics of something like this are exponentially more complex than any current doping method.

It smells more like sensationalizing a particular research topic, and I for one, am disappointed that the researcher did little to dissuade the reporter. Of course, sometimes it doesn't matter what you say, they will print what they want, right?

2Rodies

I have one more comment then I'm done with subject. Cheating is wrong in any sport. Doping is cheating. Period.

Holicow you will never change Devils mind so stop wasting your time. He has his beliefs and he is entitled to them. You and many others feel differently and you/we are entitled to that also. Let it go and let's either kill this topic or get it back on track.

holicow

Hey, I've tried to re-direct. See my post above yours. This thread had some merit until the ranting started, and probably still does if you pick through it. Sure, he's entitled to his beliefs, but not to harrass and intimidate.

I also find his viewpoint interesting in that it probably mirrors that of dopers in cycling. That's why I haven't just ignored him.

I have made my points, and promise not to add any further, unless pro CYCLISTS contribute something. Any out there???? Helloooo?? Or if someone has a technical question...

Crunkologist

Personally, I'd like to see doping restrictions in all professional sports lifted. Its cheating because we define it as such, but I don't think it should be. This would level the playing field.

Currently, athletes that dope recieve substandard medical care while they do so. The way I see it... the health problems associated with increased doping would be offset by the proper medical care that athletes would recieve that doped.

Look at the Mr. Olympia. Bodybuilding is a sport that is defined by doping. And yet it is still a great sport, and chemicals are only part of it.

brent_dube

If I was a pro, I would dope.
Its one of those things... against the rules, but if the more 'pure' riders decide not to dope, that just gives an advantage to those most willing to cheat. Since it cannot be stopped, I think it is worse to see cyclists have a career lowered because they were unwilling to cheat and were beaten by cheating riders.
The tests are decent enough now that I don't think a cyclist has to risk a lot to get a level enhancement. I don't think it is like the 90s, where riders were going over 55% hematocrit, for example.

Legalizing it would ruin the sport in quite a few ways. I'd prefer riders having to deal with decent drug tests.

Go on rec.bicycles.racing and read some posts by the crazies such as "crit pro"... hehe

I think the average level at the end of the Tour de France this year was about 40% (I dont recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was between 38-42%)

I think the big problem in pro cycling is how stupid some riders are when it comes to drug use. Some seem willing to put any performance decreasing drug into their bodies, thinking it might help them out. Then riders come to near death like Manzano.

holicow

I hate fatalistic arguments....

I know it can't be stopped, as with any crime/cheating. But it can be enforced and penalized more strictly which will (should) lead to a reduction and a change in perception.

The public thinks all pro cyclists use drugs. Is that OK with you?

Crunkologist

Frankly, I believe that most professional athletes "dope" in one form or another. So its okay with me that people think so, yes.

In my opinion, the frequency of testing that would have to occur to eliminate even currently known methods of "doping" would be totally intrusive. We'd be talking about daily tests to catch short acting agents. I think thats a bit much.

Its only cheating/crime as long as you decide it is. Once its not, its not a problem. Its not fatalistic. Its realistic.

gcasillo

Reasons for not (openly) accepting doping in sport:
1. Message it sends to younger athletes, most who do not have access to people who truly know about these drugs, and the danger that comes with it.
2. Liability when consequences catch up with those who dope (e.g. Pantani).
3. Acceptance of doping by no means levels the playing field. It would just make medicine a bigger part of sport.
4. Instead of talking about an athlete's grit or determination, we'd discuss what sort of alchemy the athlete's physicians were up to. Boring.
5. There simply would be no such thing as sport for those unwilling to dope. That sound good to you?

pinky

I'd only agree with number one gcasillo. Number two is a choice atheletes make, number three there is no such thing as a level playing field, number four atheletes are still going to suffer possibly even more than before-doping merely allows it to happen more often and at higher speed, number five...if Lance (or Rebellin or Ullrich or Bettini or...) isn't doping then how come he keeps winning especially when there is doping (like Hamilton)?

brent_dube

In regards to #3, the playing field would be fluctuated by drugs.

In regards to #4, if an athlete has better performance capabilities, they will suffer less. A tough 100 mile route won't be as tough, and a group sprint of 10 riders at the end will turn into a group of 100 riders.
The only way to make the suffering level as high would be to compensate for the drugs by making the races longer and tougher.

In regards to #5, it is wrong to assume that it is already impossible for a clean rider to beat a doped rider.

VintageSteve

Lyle Alzado died of brain cancer, likely brought on by extreme use of steroids. It was 1969 when he started on them. He died in 1992. I read an article in Sports Illustrated just before he died, blaming steroids for his cancer and downfall.
He also pissed a lot of players and teams off with his words. He said practically all the players he knew used them.
Lyle was one of the best. He wanted his legacy to show what happens with steroid usage.
Players still use them; athletes still search for that edge. Most of the time without a thought, or care, to any possible ramifications.
How do you change that? How do you change the way players think?