Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Combining long distance training with race/speed training

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Combining long distance training with race/speed training

Old 12-14-09, 08:05 AM
  #1  
TommyL
convert
Thread Starter
 
TommyL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 735

Bikes: 1994 Bridgestone XO-4, 2006 Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Combining long distance training with race/speed training

This season I am planning on doing a few shorter races, in addition to a randonneur series (200-600k rides). I want to train for speed, not just being able to ride slow indefinitely.

Right now I am trying to develop a training schedule for the spring/summer, and I am trying to focus mostly on improving my speed while doing just enough to make sure I can handle the distance. If I do one long ride a week (50+ miles and more as the season progresses). During the course of the week I will ride 4 other days devoted to speed/recovery. 2 off days. Does this seem like a reasonable plan?

My other question is about where to fit in my two rest days in the schedule. Before or after hard training day? Before or after distance day? Back to back or split up?

Thanks for any help or other advice that stems form this topic!
TommyL is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 08:22 AM
  #2  
ericm979
Senior Member
 
ericm979's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains
Posts: 6,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You should do your most intense training when you are the most rested. You can do a long endurance ride when you're already a bit tired.

Decide which (randonne or racing) you are most interested in doing and make your training focus on that. Trying to be your best at both is tough and will probably mean that you do poorly at both.

There's no such thing as a speed/recovery ride. It's one or the other.

With two days off a week, you probably don't also need recovery rides.

Working on raising your FTP with longer intervals will probably help both racing and distance riding. But for racing you need the ability to go fast for shorter periods of time as well, and those kind of workouts are what will tire you out and reduce the amount of distance work you can do.
ericm979 is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 08:48 AM
  #3  
Basil Moss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,051

Bikes: Specialized Allez (2007)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If 50 miles is a long ride, I'd suggest that you need to work on that before you start racing. If you are new to this, spend the coming year doing the randonneur series, work on your endurance base and have fun. Racing can wait, it's not all that wise to start busting a gut with sprint intervals several times a week before you've developed much of an aerobic base.

Don't try to get too high tech with your training at first, either. Just go on as many long group rides as you can, without going out so often that you wear yourself out.

If you've already got that endurance base, you need to maintain it with one long ride a week (60-100 miles, or 4-5 hours saddle time, depending on how long your longest race is) though the season. Then add in interval sessions, faster group rides like a chaingang if there's one in your area, and competing as often as you can.

If the "shorter races" you mean are criterums, you'll need a very different type of training than if they are road races, and your randonneuring won't be very transferrable.
Basil Moss is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 08:52 AM
  #4  
ZeCanon
Writin' stuff
 
ZeCanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 3,784
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'd say stick to the long rides at least through winter and early spring. You will be surprised how fast you can get on big volume alone. Leave intervals under 20 minutes for the start of your racing season.

If you do a couple 4 hr rides a week at a decent "endurance pace" clip, you'll end up being a faster racer and randonneur.
ZeCanon is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 09:20 PM
  #5  
TommyL
convert
Thread Starter
 
TommyL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 735

Bikes: 1994 Bridgestone XO-4, 2006 Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The shorter races I'm doing are more about a shorter sustained effort than true racing skills. The first is a 30 something road bike leg of a relay race, and the second is a 25 mile hill climb. I want to improve my times in these events, but sprinting and other race skills aren't really necessary for me in these events. The real racing may come in 2011, but the rando series is a goal I've had for a while and I don't want to try and focus on both.

My race training will be 1-2 "race pace" group rides each week, and maybe some form of individual training (long intervals sound good). I've done a few of these and they were great fun. My long ride will be a weekend group ride with the extra miles tacked onto the end.

I've done a couple pf 200ks, so 50 miles isn't too long. It's just the base I would use for my distance ride, and probably more than I will do on the other rides during the week. I am traveling all year and only get back in April, so it will be a good distance to start with when I am back on the bike.

Thanks for the great info; it's not very often I see a perfect 3/3 on useful responses here! When it comes time I will post my days of the week and when my group rides are. Then maybe I can get some help filling in the blanks to get a good schedule.
TommyL is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 09:46 PM
  #6  
brian416
Roadie
 
brian416's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 1,448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My training this year consisted of lots of 100+ mile rides. I usually did them 2-3 times a week and didn't do any intervals. I felt really good road racing a did fine, it was in crits where I could feel the difference not having the bursts of power out of corners
brian416 is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 10:20 PM
  #7  
ericm979
Senior Member
 
ericm979's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains
Posts: 6,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Oh. There's a big difference between long TTs and mass start races. Long hillclimb races are ridden like TTs... almost everyone rides at their threshold. Which race is this?

You don't need any speed work for these races, just a high FTP.
ericm979 is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 10:25 PM
  #8  
TommyL
convert
Thread Starter
 
TommyL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 735

Bikes: 1994 Bridgestone XO-4, 2006 Trek 1500

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yes, both of these races are like long TTs. The hill climb is the Ride 542, otherwise known as the Mt Baker Hill Climb. What is FTP?
TommyL is offline  
Old 12-14-09, 10:29 PM
  #9  
hammy56
coffee-stained punk
 
hammy56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TommyL View Post
Yes, both of these races are like long TTs. The hill climb is the Ride 542, otherwise known as the Mt Baker Hill Climb. What is FTP?
functional threshold power...watts you can maintain for a 1 hr effort, without being wrecked...
hammy56 is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 07:46 AM
  #10  
procrit
carbon is too light
 
procrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 950

Bikes: Cannondale Road / Orbea TT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
functional threshold power...watts you can maintain for a 1 hr effort, just before you die from the effort.
fixed
procrit is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 09:21 AM
  #11  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
functional threshold power...watts you can maintain for a 1 hr effort, without being wrecked...
No, you are pretty much completely wrecked after an hour at FTP.
umd is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 09:23 AM
  #12  
procrit
carbon is too light
 
procrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 950

Bikes: Cannondale Road / Orbea TT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This winter I'd follow ZeCanon's advice and ride quite a bit of volume (8 hours a week is PLENTY for starters through Cat 3 in my opinion), with maybe 1 day for threshold work, the rest just endurance riding and some easy tempo stuff. You can add in the speed work and more intense threshold work 8 weeks away from your race day and that'll be plenty of time to get fast.

You will meet guys that are doing 12-15 (or more) hours a week, and are still Cat 4 pack fodder. They are riding above their ability to recover, and will never get faster because they aren't allowing their body to heal and progress. The key is to get as much gain as possible out of minimum amount of riding, THEN slightly increase when you start showing up to every ride extremely fresh. If you are carrying residual soreness into any of your rides at 7-8 hours a week, DO NOT increase your volume. Give it some time, and when you are ready to move up, you will feel it. I started around 6 hours a week last year, progressed to 7-8 hours a week (which took me to the top of Cat 3, enough to earn points towards my Cat 2), and a year later I'm finally able to handle 10-12 hours a week (will be racing Cat 2's this season). My cousin (former top level Cat 1) averaged 12-14 when he was winning local Cat 1 races and competed well at even NRC events. WaterRockets can crush the cat 3's on 7-8 hours of riding a week as well. A friend was on the olympic development squad riding less than 20hr a week... OLYMPIC level.
procrit is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 03:36 PM
  #13  
Basil Moss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,051

Bikes: Specialized Allez (2007)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The above is some of the best training advise for new racers I've ever seen.
Basil Moss is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 05:04 PM
  #14  
mollusk
Elite Fred
 
mollusk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edge City
Posts: 10,893

Bikes: 2009 Spooky (cracked frame), 2006 Curtlo, 2002 Lemond (current race bike) Zurich, 1987 Serotta Colorado, 1986 Cannondale for commuting, a 1984 Cannondale on loan to my son

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by umd View Post
No, you are pretty much completely wrecked after an hour at FTP.
I'd go further than that. I'd say that you will still hurt for a couple of days if you put in 1 hour at FTP.
mollusk is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 09:31 PM
  #15  
45suited
Slave to my PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dirty Jersey
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by procrit View Post
You will meet guys that are doing 12-15 (or more) hours a week, and are still Cat 4 pack fodder. They are riding above their ability to recover, and will never get faster because they aren't allowing their body to heal and progress. The key is to get as much gain as possible out of minimum amount of riding, THEN slightly increase when you start showing up to every ride extremely fresh. If you are carrying residual soreness into any of your rides at 7-8 hours a week, DO NOT increase your volume. Give it some time, and when you are ready to move up, you will feel it. I started around 6 hours a week last year, progressed to 7-8 hours a week (which took me to the top of Cat 3, enough to earn points towards my Cat 2), and a year later I'm finally able to handle 10-12 hours a week (will be racing Cat 2's this season). My cousin (former top level Cat 1) averaged 12-14 when he was winning local Cat 1 races and competed well at even NRC events. WaterRockets can crush the cat 3's on 7-8 hours of riding a week as well. A friend was on the olympic development squad riding less than 20hr a week... OLYMPIC level.
It would seem you could get away with hours (7-8)like this if your focus was on crits but be a bit light for 200k-600k brevets. I am curious of what your base weeks looked like with that many hours because I admittedly probably fall into the category of someone who is fatigued from putting in those 12-15 hour weeks.
45suited is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 10:17 PM
  #16  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by procrit View Post
I started around 6 hours a week last year, progressed to 7-8 hours a week (which took me to the top of Cat 3, enough to earn points towards my Cat 2), and a year later I'm finally able to handle 10-12 hours a week (will be racing Cat 2's this season). My cousin (former top level Cat 1) averaged 12-14 when he was winning local Cat 1 races and competed well at even NRC events. WaterRockets can crush the cat 3's on 7-8 hours of riding a week as well. A friend was on the olympic development squad riding less than 20hr a week... OLYMPIC level.
I don't think you can really assume a linear progression between training volume and categories like that. People are different and respond to training loads differently.
umd is offline  
Old 12-16-09, 11:50 PM
  #17  
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Posts: 20,247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mollusk View Post
I'd go further than that. I'd say that you will still hurt for a couple of days if you put in 1 hour at FTP.
I thought the coggan/allan (allen?) approach was that you'd have the same fatigue from a 100 TSS ride whether it happened in an hour or in 10.
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 12-17-09, 12:00 AM
  #18  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
I thought the coggan/allan (allen?) approach was that you'd have the same fatigue from a 100 TSS ride whether it happened in an hour or in 10.
It's supposed to be the same metabolic stress but that doesn't mean that it will feel the same. You can putz around at a recovery pace long enough to rack up 100 TSS, but's certainly not going to be the same as the hour at FTP.
umd is offline  
Old 12-17-09, 12:37 AM
  #19  
ridethecliche
Village Idiot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bahstaaaaan
Posts: 20,247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 12-17-09, 10:35 AM
  #20  
procrit
carbon is too light
 
procrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 950

Bikes: Cannondale Road / Orbea TT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 45suited View Post
It would seem you could get away with hours (7-8)like this if your focus was on crits but be a bit light for 200k-600k brevets. I am curious of what your base weeks looked like with that many hours because I admittedly probably fall into the category of someone who is fatigued from putting in those 12-15 hour weeks.
My previous winter base consisted of ~6-7 hours a week... several tempo-ish rides during the week, then a 36 mile group ride on the weekend. I didn't know much about training at that point, other than 'you gotta keep your heart rate up'. Thankfully, bikeforums.net, a powertap, and 'the book' changed all of that.

At the peak of race season last year, my training included about 3-4 hours of specific interval training during the week days, and a sub-5hr century on Saturday. I could probably get away with that this season and get the rest of my upgrade points to Cat 2, but since I'm physically able to handle a few more hours, I'm using them to help with weight management and preparation for the multi-day events I plan on tackling this year.
procrit is offline  
Old 12-17-09, 12:18 PM
  #21  
andre nickatina
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Posts: 4,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by procrit View Post
You will meet guys that are doing 12-15 (or more) hours a week, and are still Cat 4 pack fodder. They are riding above their ability to recover, and will never get faster because they aren't allowing their body to heal and progress.
I'd like to reiterate this. On both the internet and in my personal experience with teammates, those who ride more volume are not always the faster riders. The reason is likely twofold and connected: lack of recovery and lack of adequate nutrition. I see on forums quite a bit people with threads basically asking "why am I not getting any faster?" and they have a single rest day through the whole week of their schedule. Likewise, I have cat 4/5 teammates getting into 17 hour training weeks with six days on and one day off. It's imperative to never forget that riding the bike is only half the equation: the body gets weakened from training rides, and in turn strengthens itself in the off-time for the next time out.

Two good ways to hasten recovery: protein shake after the ride, eggs somewhere in the vicinity of the next meal after riding and yogurt before bedtime. Whey is a fast-digesting protein and that's what you want after a workout; eggs make up the most bioavailable source of amino acids of any food, i.e. your body absorbs and uses protein at a better efficiency from eggs than say, steak or chicken; casein, the majority protein found in dairy products, is a slow-digesting protein that can help recovery overnight - plain yogurt just happens to be the healthiest form of dairy. It's doubtful that the body is able to process more than 20-25g of protein in one sitting though, so don't try to play bodybuilder and over do it.
andre nickatina is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.