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Raced a crit today, first club outing

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Raced a crit today, first club outing

Old 12-20-09, 01:53 AM
  #1  
Braden1550
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Raced a crit today, first club outing

So I've completed 3 races now;
2008- Victorian Schools Cycling Championships. Placed 10th on old steel 10 sp.
2009- Victorian Schools Cycling Championships. Placed 3rd (Mens, U19) and was supposed to go to state finals.

Today-Criterium with local club, 40 mins + 3 laps. I attacked on every lap except for 2, not to get away but to put the hurt on them chasing me down. Sprinted from midfield with 100 to go and took 2nd, the guy that got first was a half bike length ahead, and 3rd about the same. Guy that took 1st went at 200, and rolled over the line exhausted (we had a headwind).

VSCC are crits but with small fields, so your not in a bunch-just a small paceline. Today was a bunch of 29, and boy, did I get yelled at. At first, it was for attacking. Then It was because I was racing aggressively (e.g. taking the corner as I pleased, not letting the guy trying to pass me through on the inside). Then it was for attacking. Then I got told to chill out and go to the back. Then I got yelled at for attacking. I wasn't attacking in corners so I don't know what the problem was.

Admittedly, I need to learn some racing etiquette, as I simply rolled up to the start and assumed that it was different to the friendly group rides I'd done, in respect to "If you don't like it, here's a cup of concrete now HTFU".

I really enjoyed the experience, and will definitely take to club racing-I loved attacking, I really didn't race smart at all, I just went, and went again and again and again (I read somewhere to ignore the tactics/when to sprint, e.t.c. and just "attack attack attack" if it's your 1st race). I'm really pleased with the results-maybe next time I'll try and be smart about it.

I've been told to grade up (I raced C grade today, the field basically resembling some 3s, 4s and a couple of 5s that got shot out tha back and lapped) to B grade next race, but I'm not keen on it until I learn the in's and outs of cornering in a race.

Last edited by Braden1550; 12-20-09 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 12-20-09, 06:33 PM
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Without being there, it's hard to say but it sounds like you were not holding your line in the corners. Unless you are the front, "taking the corner as I pleased, not letting the guy trying to pass me through on the inside" is not cool.
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Old 12-20-09, 06:39 PM
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Was this a legit crit or a training crit? Chances are they were yelling at you for attacking since they wanted to focus on group handling skills.
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Old 12-20-09, 06:42 PM
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guys, i have not raced yet, but i plan to this season, i am 19.

WHY would he get yelled at for attacking?
and being told to cool off and go to the back...

to me that sounds like utter whiney ******bags would do that, its a race. someone should be able to attack all they want. if you cant keep up, you lose.

i understand he could have been rude in some parts, also at taking the line as he pleased in the middle of the group is not cool and could cause a crash.

but as for being free to attack? can you guys explain this?
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Old 12-21-09, 01:24 AM
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Sounds like his behavior was socially unacceptable. When some gimp turns up and attacks feebly every lap, only to return to the bunch halfway round the circuit, it gets annoying to the people interested in winning. Then when he goes cutting people off in the corners, gets a bit worse than annoying.
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Old 12-21-09, 02:09 AM
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Yeah, it was a proper race.

50 to 100m on a hilly 1.1km circuit is not "feebly" thanks.

sounds like you were not holding your line in the corners. Unless you are the front, "taking the corner as I pleased, not letting the guy trying to pass me through on the inside" is not cool.
I'm already working on it, and understand now. Towards the end of the race I started to get it, and by the next one I'll have it down. I do recognise it was 100% wrong and my fault, and I make 0 excuses for it.

Aside from that, what is OK and what is "uncool" in a crit? I'd like to know what other mistakes NOT to make. Generally, is there an OK way to overtake in corners?

Last edited by Braden1550; 12-21-09 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 12-21-09, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Braden1550 View Post
I'm already working on it, and understand now. Towards the end of the race I started to get it, and by the next one I'll have it down. I do recognise it was 100% wrong and my fault, and I make 0 excuses for it.

Aside from that, what is OK and what is "uncool" in a crit? I'd like to know what other mistakes NOT to make. Generally, is there an OK way to overtake in corners?
It's good that you have the wherewithal to figure out what you're doing, both good and bad.

"Feebly" is different for different people. For me, I consider a 100m lead to be huge. However, most riders would laugh at a mere 100 meters. If you can gain time until you're 30 seconds ahead, then settle into a nice rhythm... you get the idea. On a 1.1 km course, I'd say 1/3 to 1/2 lap is a reasonable lead. A lead like that can be bridged in maybe 1 lap of hard riding (this is a .8 km course):
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...elmet-cam.html
I felt bad for bridging up the field to the rider in red, apologized after the race.

What is okay and not? In general, sit in and watch other riders. Usually there'll be a rider or three that everyone defers to. They may be the strongest, or smartest, or has a dad that was a pro, or maybe he's just a bully. Whatever, watch what he/they do and you'll be able to figure it out.

Passing in turns - I could write a book on that but the short answer/s:
- when you're up front, you need to pick a line and hold it. It's like you choose a "running lane" of your own making and follow that line. Any veering is usually frowned on.
- when you're not up front, you can gently move off that line to get around the guy in front. If the guy in front chose a bad line (meaning tactically - he chose a line that apexes 6 feet from the curb, leaving a 5 foot hole open), then you go fill that gap. If the guy chose a reasonable line (1 foot gap at apex) then you go on the outside. Outside is more risky, longer, usually more wind, but often times it's the better place to move up. Everyone jams the inside.

Regarding "blocking" someone. Any time you need to veer to block, stick out an elbow, any time you have to do something that isn't part of a normal bike ride when you ride on your own, you've put yourself in a tactically weak position. Don't veer, elbow, kick, pull, punch, etc. Give up the position, figure out what you did wrong, and see if you can't keep it from happening again.

If you put yourself in a tactically weak position, you've lost. Accept it and move on.

If you force it when in a tactically weak position, at best people will yell at you. At worst you'll be mowing down riders like you were shooting them with a machine gun. One poor judgment rider took out a good 30-40 racers in the sprint at Bethel one year - he jumped really hard on the right side and proceeded all the way across the road at full speed, disregarding the fact that he wasn't really at the front yet. I think about 15 riders finished in front of him, half the rest of the field were down, and the other half unclipped and trying to help their friends.

Some things you can check out, if you haven't already:

Sphere (around your bars - the untouchable area when you ride):
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...scenarios.html

When is contact okay?
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...ontact-ok.html

Worrying about crashing:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...-crashing.html

Vivid experience (at least for me) of how a rider in a weak tactical position can wreak havoc on others:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...to-suffer.html

Other crashes the same rider has caused. He swerved left because he was boxed in - the disk wheel guy is a multi-time -28?- national champion in crit, cross, and track, and he went down. If a guy like that goes down... That crash meant broken shoulder, ribs, and a bunch of broken bikes and bodies. My teammates flat out refused to do any more crits after that. One teammate hit the 55 gallon drum with his knee (I just missed it) and it flew up about 6 feet in the air. They weigh like 100 lbs. Last week I met the cop working the race that day - he said other cops started showing up because he was continuously calling for ambulances, and people wanted to see what this bloodbath was all about:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...elmet-cam.html

He also took out much of a field 10 days later at the same Tues night series where he took me out, basically the same circumstances.

Don't be the bully

You'll be fine. Race hard, race well.

cdr
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Old 12-21-09, 09:30 AM
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I don't see what's wrong with attacking. Maybe not the smartest tactical decision, but it's completely safe to everyone if you're alone off the front. If the group doesn't like it, they should ride faster. If you had enough energy to attack every lap, I would suggest sitting in for the first half of the race, only attacking once, and making it stick.
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Old 12-21-09, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Braden1550 View Post
I've been told to grade up (I raced C grade today, the field basically resembling some 3s, 4s and a couple of 5s that got shot out tha back and lapped)
You mean to say that you raced the equivalent of cat 3's and got 2nd in your first crit?
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Old 12-21-09, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by brianappleby View Post
I don't see what's wrong with attacking. Maybe not the smartest tactical decision, but it's completely safe to everyone if you're alone off the front. If the group doesn't like it, they should ride faster. If you had enough energy to attack every lap, I would suggest sitting in for the first half of the race, only attacking once, and making it stick.
+1, attacking is fun, I wish I could do it more
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Old 12-21-09, 12:11 PM
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Attacking just for the sake of attacking is pointless. If you're bouncing off the front like a yo-yo repeatedly and getting nowhere then you're doing something wrong. You're not going to tire the field out because it takes them much less effort to reel you in then it does for you to punch it to open a gap. For a mid-race attack to work you need to be able to establish a gap quickly then settle in the a sustainable pace to hold or expand the lead. Most likely you'll need 1-3 people to bridge across for a break to have any chance.
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Old 12-21-09, 03:14 PM
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Agreed, but he shouldn't get yelled at for doing it
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Old 12-21-09, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by neuronal View Post
You mean to say that you raced the equivalent of cat 3's and got 2nd in your first crit?
A Grade-same as your 1's (semi-pro teams or whatever you call them and some inter continental teams come in here)
B Grade- 2's, 3's. (one guy that got 17th should have been here but pulled too often and couldn't recover when he attacked)
C Grade- 3's, 4's. Example-the guy that got first, a good B grader sandbagging (one of your 3's) and some of the guys
D Grade- 5's (didn't run on the day so they raced c's and got lapped). Example- The guys after 20th place.
Our system isn't as good as the American system.

I've been training really really hard since June, and sprint training for 3 months now. Instead of using races to get fit I've been training before I went into any races.
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Old 12-21-09, 10:19 PM
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re" attacking too much"... it's a training crit... what's wrong with making the race hard? I don't get it.

sure, you could be "smarter about when where and how you attack, in order to "make it stick" but after all, it's a training crit so all that matters is you get a workout and learn...safely... just my .02
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Old 12-21-09, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by brianappleby View Post
Agreed, but he shouldn't get yelled at for doing it
True, but I'm guessing that something about the manner he was doing it was yell-worthy.
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Old 12-22-09, 02:39 AM
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It wasn't a training crit. Its the summer criterium series. Points and $$$ up for grabs. Roads closed.

Last edited by Braden1550; 12-22-09 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 12-22-09, 02:45 AM
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Unless it was a specific "work aspects of racing" training ride (which the OP indicates it was not), then he was doing something wrong. No offense to the OP, and congrats on going out and having fun and making things lively, but, I know a bunch of guys who like to attack and attack often, and we don't get yelled at. When I yell at someone it is because when they "attack," they cut across the front and almost take out a wheel, or they cut people off by attacking from 20 places back, or they do some other sketchy move. I have seen a lot of people do the whole "feeble" attack thing where the pack lets them dangle off the front 50-200 meters and just laughs as they fry themselves. I would think that this is what is happening to the OP but they were actually yelling, so chances are he was doing something a bit more dangerous than wasting his energy reserves.

I would be very curious to hear the OP describe his "attack." I have a teammate who always says, "I will attack and make them chase to tire the field out" and all he manages to do is ride solo about 150m up the road. I often get asked "what is he doing." I shrug and shake my head. No matter how many times I tell him that the pack is not reacting to him, he seems to think that his Jens Voigt heroics are causing everyone to go crazy. Chances are, they are not. There are very few riders who inspire that kind of reaction, and even they know that they cannot tire the pack out with a few dangling attacks.

Good on the OP for taking the race to the pack, but a reevaluation may be necessary if there are unkind words spoken.

$.02
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Old 12-22-09, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
or they cut people off by attacking from 20 places back, or they do some other sketchy move.
On a few occasions, but on the outside away from the group.
I would think that this is what is happening to the OP but they were actually yelling, so chances are he was doing something a bit more dangerous than wasting his energy reserves.
I would be very curious to hear the OP describe his "attack."
I'd sprint until I had a nice gap (which depending on the course was 50-100m) and hold it for a half lap or until they had chased me down. I tried to keep it at a speed where I was not gaining ground on straights but I was on corners. I know it worked for the first few attacks, up until around 20 mins or so then everyone just sort of got sick of it. The first attack was more or less an accident, i'd pulled out of the bunch to have a drink and gained positions fairly easily when I put the bottle back and found myself level with the guy pulling, about my age. I went, because I thought at that point he might have been a contender and would probably get fried after getting yelled at to close the gap, which he tried and then spent the rest of the race midfield. I got caught by the next guy pulling and that.

I have no doubt that every attack after 20 mins went ignored, and TBH I wasn't actually thinking tactically or thinking at all. Just "yeah, feel good, I'm going! wooooooooooooooo look at me flyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yeahhhhhhhhh!"

I know that when people are yelling, its for your own benefit/detriment, and when their all racing around on their pride and joy, its probably for their safety and your benefit to listen. I spoke to a colleague who raced on the day, and we talked about it, and he said that I need to work on my lines (holding them) rather then just chopping to move up. I'm already practicing this specifically, although I do it (holding lines) on even competitive group rides, what I now realize is that just because its a race doesn't give you an excuse to disregard everyone around you. Like it or not, we all have to get up for work tomorrow. I know it was 100% on me and I'd like to mention it again just so It's clear that I knwo what I did wrong and I'm working on it.

Other then that my colleague said to race smart and tactically. He said I can sprint well enough to take it out or place, but not if I'm going to waste energy like I did. At one point someone else attacked and he yelled from the back "close it Braden!" and there I went from midfield. No reason. so thats the other thing I'm thinking about-don't go crazy, race smart. Sit in. Take a pull. e.t.c.

An effective attack might have been 100% everything I've got as hard as I can, to tire out the contenders so a Team mate sitting in could take the flag. I don't have a team so no. Or to attack and TT.

Last edited by Braden1550; 12-22-09 at 03:29 AM.
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Old 12-22-09, 03:56 AM
  #19  
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you did fine mate, just keep going back and doing what you want, ride your own race and don't sit in and wait for it to happen or come to you. You were just giving them the ****s and either you'll work out it's not working or they will let you go and you'll get put up a grade and wont be able to do it anymore.

work out how to corner, don't chop people. So maybe they will keep you in "C" grade until you have the handling down more.

U19 so don't worry about the older guys there telling you off, just listen to the other blokes your age, I'm sure most 19 year olds will tell you what they think of your riding. Keep at it and in a while you'll have it sussed out and know when and what to do, just work on the corners with a big tight group and in a 2 abreast paceline and a rotating paceline. It will all come to you time and experience.
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Old 12-22-09, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Braden1550 View Post
i'd pulled out of the bunch to have a drink.
This concept troubles me.
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Old 12-22-09, 12:29 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by woodduck View Post
U19 so don't worry about the older guys there telling you off, just listen to the other blokes your age, I'm sure most 19 year olds will tell you what they think of your riding.
Yes, they will.

Originally Posted by WR3K View Post
guys, i have not raced yet, but i plan to this season, i am 19.

to me that sounds like utter whiney ******bags would do that, its a race. someone should be able to attack all they want. if you cant keep up, you lose.
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Old 12-22-09, 02:32 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
I would be very curious to hear the OP describe his "attack." I have a teammate who always says, "I will attack and make them chase to tire the field out" and all he manages to do is ride solo about 150m up the road. I often get asked "what is he doing." I shrug and shake my head. No matter how many times I tell him that the pack is not reacting to him, he seems to think that his Jens Voigt heroics are causing everyone to go crazy. Chances are, they are not. There are very few riders who inspire that kind of reaction, and even they know that they cannot tire the pack out with a few dangling attacks.
+1
most attacks like this are not important and i usually try to discourage the field from chasing until the attack has been off the front for more than 1 1/2 to 2 laps. a lot of riders will attack but die when they hit the 2 mph headwind or 1% uphill on one side of the course. if i see that they die in that section there is no point in chasing as the field will catch them on the next lap without any acceleration.

if they do last a couple of laps and i see that they are strong on the tougher parts of the course then it's time to chase and chase hard, because that's a break that might actually work.

the tactic that i have seen be effective recently is the attack form the break. a small group attacks and gets a gap. after a few a laps the field closes down the gap, just before we catch the break the one strong rider in the break will attack and get away or keep his gap. the field will slow because we've caught the break and most riders won't even realize that there is still a rider up the road until it's too late and start chasing in the last few laps but chasing slows as we approach the last lap and no one wants too work too hard so they can sprint for second
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Old 12-22-09, 02:56 PM
  #23  
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I figure they yelled at you because they saw your excess energy and decided to try to manipulate you. It may have worked.
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Old 12-23-09, 12:36 AM
  #24  
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There's two reasons you get yelled at, the first one is you're either doing something stupid/dangerous or you're hurting their chances of winning so the guy yells at you so you don't win.
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