Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Track-style racing on the street?

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Track-style racing on the street?

Old 01-11-10, 11:41 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
Track-style racing on the street?

I have this idea for a twilight race downtown that would go around a single block (just about 500m, according to gmap-pedometer). Because it's so short, I was thinking that rather than a regular crit, it would be fun to do track races like miss-and-outs.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
caloso is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 12:13 PM
  #2  
fair weather cyclist
 
pjcampbell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Green Mountains
Posts: 1,368

Bikes: Colnago c50

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
I have done this sort of race. It's brutal but its fun. Swiss American in Phoenix does it every year. it is winner takes all (cash). they do like 10 qualifying rounds over the course of 2 days and a final (you have to do maybe 3 qualifying rounds and not get "out" to get to the finals, I think). miss and out style. They also throw in regular sanctioned crits in between the qualifying rounds.
pjcampbell is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 12:19 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
Do the early laps go really slow? I'm trying to imagine how the tactics play out.
caloso is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 12:38 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,395

Bikes: Tsunami road bikes, Dolan DF4 track

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times in 97 Posts
Originally Posted by caloso
Do the early laps go really slow? I'm trying to imagine how the tactics play out.
Anything can happen.

If there's a good sprinter, he may jump every lap to get 2nd last or something. Therefore non-sprinters will try going long.

If there are a few good riders, they can really drill it, separate from the others, TTT together until they're the selection, then fight it out amongst themselves. I've seen this happen the most - reducing the odds.

Or you get solo moves. In my last Miss N Out, the race was going to race through the final selection, i.e. last 3 riders selected, 2 laps of racing, and sprint for first-third places. I always got eliminated early in Miss N Outs so I attacked with about 4-5 selections to go (i.e. left in race = 4-5 laps of selections, 2 laps of racing, and sprint).

I was off the front until 1 lap to go, and when the first guy caught me, I sat up. I got caught by 2nd guy at 1/2 lap to go. I'm no TT type rider and I think my little attack caught folks off guard.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 12:45 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
Cool. That's exactly the kind of mix-it-up racing I was thinking of. How long were the courses you did, CDR?
caloso is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 01:07 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,395

Bikes: Tsunami road bikes, Dolan DF4 track

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times in 97 Posts
Mine was on track (318 meters), but I've done points crits on 0.8 - 1 mile courses.

I've never done a Miss N Out crit - too hard. I skipped them all, but that was before I ever raced on track.

Usually track type events on crit courses are very hard. They favor strong riders, meaning really fit riders. When a local training series went to a points format it basically folded - it was just too hard to race, even just to finish.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 01:44 PM
  #7  
Senior Member?
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,977

Bikes: orbea onix, Cervelo SLC, Specialzed Allez, Cervelo P3 Alu

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
God I hate it when the fit riders have an unfair advantage.
brianappleby is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 01:59 PM
  #8  
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,690
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked 216 Times in 101 Posts
One of our local crits is run as a points race, it's pretty fun and keeps the race entertaining. They give out points every 4 laps and double points on the last lap, you can also win by lapping the field.
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 03:05 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,395

Bikes: Tsunami road bikes, Dolan DF4 track

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times in 97 Posts
Originally Posted by brianappleby
God I hate it when the fit riders have an unfair advantage.
Heh. As a relatively unfit rider, and not really capable even when I'm fit, it's difficult for me to even stay with the field when fitness becomes most important (like climbs or long sections of severe crosswinds).

One of the appealing things with cycling is that you can make up for lack of physiological ability by being/riding smarter than others. I can't time trial, run, swim, climb, at least not competitively. But I can race bikes in a flatter-type crit successfully, hence the appeal. Of course, I finish maybe 1/2 to 1/4 the races, but when I finish, I have a chance at doing okay. Some weeks I'm the hammer, other weeks I'm the nail.

When a race starts to overwhelmingly favor more fit racers (road races with big climbs, or, in this case, crits with multiple sprints and such), the race becomes less tactical and more physical. It becomes more like a running race except your personal time means diddly. At that point it loses appeal to me since I'm simply not that fit.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 05:46 PM
  #10  
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,586

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 35 Posts
for the past two years there's been a track-bike 'crit' on the cobbled streets of red hook in brooklyn, ny. google "red hook crit" for some more info. if you're doing this in an under-the-radar sort of way, you'll want to make sure that youv'e got your bases covered - 'marshalls' et cetera, to assure any POs that might raise eyebrows that everything is just fine and safe and you're not bothering anybody.
queerpunk is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 06:10 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
Interesting! No, but we'll want to do it on the up-and-up. I'm conceiving of an event with our team's sponsor (pizza and espresso caffe) on the course and doing it on a Second Saturday (downtown art and music event). I do envision having a fixed gear heat, as well as a kids and cruiser/altbike race.
caloso is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 09:07 PM
  #12  
slow up hills
 
kudude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931

Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
^^ what day of the week were you thinking? I might be persuaded to drive up to sacramento to fill out the numbers in the pack
kudude is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 10:17 PM
  #13  
Announcer
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,108

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 13 Posts
The Michelob Night Rider series. circa 1990

It was a two lap Keirin on a crit course.

They had a car (with a wind screen on the trunk) pulling the first lap. The second lap was un-aided. Held at night.

Great fun.
EventServices is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 10:28 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
Originally Posted by kudude
^^ what day of the week were you thinking? I might be persuaded to drive up to sacramento to fill out the numbers in the pack
Saturday night.
caloso is offline  
Old 01-11-10, 10:54 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
crbrown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In collegiate racing we had an experimental event called Street Sprints, wherein two racers would face-off on a short, straight stretch of road. Racers were matched against each other based on rankings in the collegiate results, and the sprint matches proceeded up towards finals on a bracket system.

Matching the racing pairs and having them line up in order really smoothed things along, as did the rapid release of racing pairs (one group started just as the other was about to finish). All categories together took less than two hours to complete, and course setup was minimal. It was spectator-friendly, as well.
crbrown is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 02:01 AM
  #16  
not actually Nickatina
 
andre nickatina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: OR
Posts: 4,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by EventServices
The Michelob Night Rider series. circa 1990

It was a two lap Keirin on a crit course.

They had a car (with a wind screen on the trunk) pulling the first lap. The second lap was un-aided. Held at night.

Great fun.
Holy ****, this sounds absolutely insane.
andre nickatina is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 03:32 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,395

Bikes: Tsunami road bikes, Dolan DF4 track

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 173 Times in 97 Posts
Originally Posted by crbrown
In collegiate racing we had an experimental event called Street Sprints, wherein two racers would face-off on a short, straight stretch of road. Racers were matched against each other based on rankings in the collegiate results, and the sprint matches proceeded up towards finals on a bracket system.

Matching the racing pairs and having them line up in order really smoothed things along, as did the rapid release of racing pairs (one group started just as the other was about to finish). All categories together took less than two hours to complete, and course setup was minimal. It was spectator-friendly, as well.
Connecticut had "Downtown Sprints" for a couple years. One year the first race I did I lined up against Jason Snow (!!). He won, among other things, the $50k one mile "shoot out" P-1-2-3 race against the likes of Marty Nothstein etc. He's also won Somerville, even a "stage" in Tour de Michigan. I got eliminated, and Jason went easy on me to make it look good. He's freakin strong.

I also did badly every other year I did it (2 more years). One year I dropped my chain in the big-second-biggest (53x21) when I jumped (standing start), tried once going in the small ring (42x11 = 53x15, and with only 150 meters, I figured I'd be faster just shifting through the small ring gears), etc. I forgot to just sprint my brains out. I was fastest in warmup (and the cop and photographer there said they both thought I'd win), got second last in real. I still got $100 or something. A Cat 1 won - he was sprinting faster every time, everyone else seemed to be struggling by the 5th-6th sprint.

I like the concept but it's not that much fun for the racers. A lot of waiting around. It's like track racing, yeah, but it's not as much fun when people don't do laps right in front of you (like in the track).

However, because of the various street sprints, I started doing sprints on city streets. And I really, really like doing them.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 02:32 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
forrest_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: seattle/madrid
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
They did a "street sprint" race here last summer, combined with a big bike festival/demo and outdoor-bike-cinema (that day's TDF stage 16). The format for the race was a two-up side-by-side sprint, 100-ish yard straightaway, turn around a cone and back to the start finish. Each winner moves up through a bracket system, by category, so as you moved up, the time between races decreased. To win your cat involved winning 5-8 sprints over the course of ~half an hour.

It was very popular with the spectators, more of a novelty for the racers, most of whom didn't take it that seriously.
forrest_m is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 03:40 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
I'm actually leaning towards more novelty. We've got a ton of crits during the summer around here, but I'm trying to think of ways to have a race that would attract spectators and racers who wouldn't normally race.
caloso is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 06:10 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What if you did an elimination crit? After the 5th lap or so, the last (x number) rider(s) to cross the line is/are eliminated until one remains. That could get tricky, depending on how close the last riders are. I think it'd be great fun though.
roy5000x2 is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 06:14 PM
  #21  
Announcer
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,108

Bikes: More than I need, really.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by roy5000x2
What if you did an elimination crit? After the 5th lap or so, the last (x number) rider(s) to cross the line is/are eliminated until one remains. That could get tricky, depending on how close the last riders are. I think it'd be great fun though.
It's called a Miss-and-Out. Every other lap, they pull the last place rider.

There's also another version called a Bavarian in which the first sprint is for 20th place, and the last sprint is for 1st.
EventServices is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 07:44 PM
  #22  
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,586

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by caloso
I'm actually leaning towards more novelty. We've got a ton of crits during the summer around here, but I'm trying to think of ways to have a race that would attract spectators and racers who wouldn't normally race.
yeah, a miss-and-out would be a great way to do that. a variety of pursuits might be cool, too - thinking in particular of team pursuits, or, if you're feeling up for it, an Australian pursuit, where racers are started even distances apart from around the entire course, and if you're caught and overtaken by somebody behind you, you're eliminated.
queerpunk is offline  
Old 01-12-10, 10:53 PM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
Ston_ar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Davis, California
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I would totally show up for a mis-and out type crit. I can see it just zipping around a city block +/- .4 miles per lap, 10-15 people per heat, prelims and finals for the bigger fields.
Ston_ar is offline  
Old 01-13-10, 11:05 AM
  #24  
Two wheels is two wheels
 
pelikan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane, CA
Posts: 876

Bikes: Pee Wee Herman Special

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I would totally drive up to Sac for a Points Crit....a Miss n Out though, not unless I can upgrade out of the E4. From my experience with MnOs at the track, it can be sketchy when people in the back try and jam it into spaces that don't exist to not get called 'out'. Essentially you have the weakest and most tired going for it every lap. At the track, the sketchiness definitely went down as I got further up ranks.

Last year & year before there were Brisbane Track Fights, which were just Points races around the Brisbane crit course. A & B fields, I'd guess < 20 in each one. Great fun! Hope they do them again this year.
pelikan is offline  
Old 01-13-10, 12:05 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
Are points races difficult to judge?
caloso is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.