ldesfor1@ithaca

At 189-195 lbs (6'3.5", low BF%) I'm not built to climb.
Aside from losing weight, which I'm working on, slowly (but will never be below 185), how can I begin to best address what i believe to be my biggest limiter (2nd being TT skillz, so lots of SST and LT work is already in the training plan)?

I'll be following a Friel-esque periodization begining with BASE1 in early november.

I'm planning on doing one hill WO per week which I figure will be hill repeats in the 3-6 minute range and of varying steepnesses. The prominent hill i plan to use (for convenience and consistent gradient) takes about 3' @FTP to climb and is a steady 8-9%.

I plan on doing 20' of climbing (7 reps) on a designated "hill day"; thurdsays probably, for the first week @ 95% of FTP. Each week that passes I will add another rep, but still @ 95%. This will mean I'll be doing 12 reps by the end of BASE2, or 36' of climbing @ 95% of FTP. Of course I could work @ supra-threshold, but I dont want to kill myself with hill reps in early winter. I'll likely do SST on wednesday, too, if this seems pertinent.

I'm guessing that by BASE3 I'll begin bringing the intensity up to 100+% of LTP for 10 reps... but who knows.



Does this sound like a viable way to work on my biggest limiter (steep hills)?

More importantly, what else can I do to adress this limiter in the "off season" that will produce better climbing without cutting into my "base" miles (SST time).

Any ideas on how to better assemble training micro-, meso- and macro-cycles to represent this desire to climb way better than I should?


thanks for all serious replies. (yes, "lose weight", i know this already)

-Leo

patentcad

Eat nothing.

Bob Dopolina 

At all.

Snuffleupagus

Stop eating so much. Seriously Mr. Doppelganger, that's just about the only way it's gonna happen...it sucks, and as such I've accepted my lot in life as a TT type. I'm never going to climb with the scrawny lil bastages, but at least I can make them hurt elsewhere.

ldesfor1@ithaca

+1!!!!

Bob Dopolina 

Seriously, at 185 it's always going to be a slog.

Yes, you can improve but the best of the group is going to ride away from you on a 3' power climb. It's just too long.

Learn to TT and descend so you can chase back on during and just after the descent. This will be a more useful skill for you.

You can best improve your climbing by finding steady 20min climbs and riding the hell out of them. Several short climbs has too much rest mixed in. At least this has worked best for me.

That's what I'd do.

Creakyknees

Don't *****. I struggle to stay below 190 and I'm only 5'11"

But.

I find that the fitter I get, the better I climb.

For the really steep stuff, you can train anaerobic power and (sometimes) sprint over the steep pitches, till you get to a shallower pitch.

ldesfor1@ithaca

what could substitute for 20' climbs... I already do lot's o' TT work...

Does low cadence work provide any help for you?
I've never done it...


thanks,
L

patentcad

In fact, consider the interesting bulemia option, that's eating less than nothing.

patentcad

Thank God somebody's fatter than me. I struggle to get to 170 or below myself at 5'11". All these 5'11" bike racers are all like 150-160lbs. If I ever got down to 160 I'd look like Christian Bale in The Machinist.



I'm working on it. The skinnier I get the better I ride. In every way. That's just how it is.

If I ever stopped riding and hit the gym, I'd be 185-190 lbs and one suit size bigger in 60 days. And I wouldn't look fat either.

ridethecliche

142 at race weight at about 5'11

Duke of Kent

I agree with Bob.

The solution is raising your FTP/20MP.

Particularly if your high-end w/kg is your limiting factor. I either have piss-poor <5min power, or I'm very under trained in that area.

I can positively murder people on longer climbs, but the 2-3min climbs eat me alive. So, I've raised my w/kg to the point where, while I'm hurting, unless people are attacking all the way up and over a climb, I'm never under real pressure.

That, and I've learned how to sag climb. If I know an attack will be coming soon on the next hill, and I'm not feeling great, I position myself at the front of the field. When the pace heats up, and I'm in the box-o'-hurt, I go fast enough that even though I'm losing ground on the front of the race, I'm still within the field when we hit the top of the climb.

aperez8264

The name of the game is power-to-weight ration, the easiest way to do it is to lose weight, but you also need to get stronger.

Drop some weight, and climb as much as possible.

MrCrassic 

Honestly, the simplest answer to this is probably the most helpful one: climb more.

Before I started commuting the job I've had for four months now, I was a horrible climber. Everyone and their mom could drop me on the climb, and I had no stamina at all. I could climb on my second chainring for maybe a few minutes, but would have little energy when I was done. I also had problems recovering from the climbs, as my overall power output would go way down.

A large reason for this was because there are very few climbs in Brooklyn and Manhattan (though all of the climbs are in Queens, Bronx and beyond). I'm pretty good on the flats because of that.

Unfortunately, in the New Jersey leg of my commute to work, there is no way to escape climbing. I can either have one 8% climb right from the train station, a long climb ranging between 3 and 5% with false flats all of the way, or a nice flat to warm-up to, then long false flats and climbs all the way into work.

Then I started playing around with my commute going home. Instead of riding into the train station (5 miles away), I decided to ride on home some days (35 miles away). Again, there's no way to escape the climb going into either 9W or Cliffside Park...and all of those climbs are steep (8%+). I just recently started just exploring out to cities near by my job (within a 30 mile radius), and going to Summit involves a set of nice, long and sometimes steep climbs.

I didn't use any intervals or training programs, though that may have improved my climbing faster. I just made goals to climb stuff, and I did.

Needless to say, my recovery after a climb got way better, and I have definitely gotten stronger. A climb that used to kill me is manageable now, and my breathing control has improved nicely.

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aperez8264

+1
If you can't climb then start at the front of the group and hopefully you won't get spit out.
Of course, I'm the 15lber that makes the field hurt...

MrCrassic 

Or that.

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aperez8264

Or a less drastic measure is to cut out all fatty foods, and become a vegan...

MrCrassic 

+1.

However, getting stronger is much more important. While I'm 155 now as opposed to 185, I still sucked as a climber because I wasn't that strong. The only way to get stronger is to climb more.

Yes it sucks. It sucks more when you have to do it. Who said training was supposed to be fun anyway?

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MrCrassic 

If you go vegan, I'm dropping cycling right now and becoming a racewalker.

I'm serious.

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Duke of Kent

How often are you doing 20min reps at 110% of FTP?

I know plenty of people are all about this "SST" crap (I am too) and this worthless "3x20min" stuff (wait..I do those too), but it seems that a lot of people neglect the all-out, nothing left intervals.

Sure, those other methods prepare you for a mean 40km TT or a long RR where everyone is playing nice. But what about the races where the selection is made early? The races where you better have those w/kg in hand, or you can kiss the race goodbye. Training at 90-95% is great for making steady improvements, but if you aren't familiar with your real limits, racing isn't going to be kind to you.

I often structure my workout as 2x20min; the first is the test, the second is just gravy. I've seen 20-30w drops before. But, as I figure, I have to be THERE at the end of the race, or nothing else matters. Have to make the selection to begin with, then worry about the final results.

patentcad

I would shoot you, but you're obviously too skinny to hit with a traditional bullet.

Perhaps I should just pound you with my large body mass.

MrCrassic 

Duke,

When you do your first set of intervals, do you go all-out, and then see if you can still get up there in your second set?

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Duke of Kent

I'm going to respectfully disagree with the guys who say "Climb more".

Sure, that helps you get used to the pace and what it takes to change speeds.

But you don't need a climb to get used to producing large amounts of power. Ride on your hoods, forearms parallel to the ground, and you're pretty much in a climbing position. Then, let it loose.

MrCrassic 

All I know is that climbing more helped me improve as a climber. It made the most sense: the more often you do something, the better you get at it.

Though it should also be considered that I wasn't as serious about improving as I am now.

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merlinextraligh

This is going to vary by individuals, depending on how well trained you are to start, and how much weight you could stand to lose.

However, for most folks, the weight is most important. Everyone you're racing against is also going to be highly trained. So it's going to be very hard to create enough power advantage to overcome any significant weight disadvantage.

Taking myself as an example, I finished this year at 3.6 w/kg and 200lbs.

I can work really hard, and maybe get my power up 20 watts by the end of next season and be at 3.8w/kg

Or I can actually show some self discipline, and lose 30lbs (which I could lose without droping power, over a sufficent period of time.) and get to 4.2 w/kg, by just keeping at the same power.

So if you have some fitness already, and any excess pounds, shedding the excess pounds is going to trump.