Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

First Race Report! & First Race!...

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

First Race Report! & First Race!...

Old 02-09-10, 04:14 PM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by umd
It sounds like the problem was that he was over his limit and pushed himself too far, went too fast on the descent and didn't realize what was happening with the back, rather than anything that can specifically be attributed to being in the drops. That's how I read it, I wasn't there.

I hear what you are saying but I still don't think a generic prohibition against being in the drops for your first race(s) makes sense.
this.

should we encourage first-time racers to wear platform shoes as well?

as you pointed out, racing is dangerous period. there's nothing more (or less) inherently dangerous than riding in the drops than any other decision you make during a race, even for first timers.
loreley is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 04:17 PM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,105 Times in 1,417 Posts
Great first race report.
caloso is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 04:28 PM
  #53  
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,620

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1322 Post(s)
Liked 1,297 Times in 555 Posts
Hmmm....yes....not drop related at all. Equipment is not the issue.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 04:31 PM
  #54  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
Originally Posted by loreley
can i just make a suggestion and get equipment that fits? everyone should be able to reach their brakes from any position, period. (well maybe not the tops)
It's not equipment. Common setups these days are to have the hoods high, either through bar rotation or hood placement, or both. I agree it would be good to get to a position where the brakes can be reached from the drops.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 04:51 PM
  #55  
Type 1 Racer
 
rydaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 2,579

Bikes: A dozen or so.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cbip
I am sure I am correct for FIRST time racers.
I'm not so sure.

As Beaker pointed out, the newb clinics in our district emphasize using the drops for a number of reasons.
rydaddy is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 05:14 PM
  #56  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
Originally Posted by loreley
this.

should we encourage first-time racers to wear platform shoes as well?

as you pointed out, racing is dangerous period. there's nothing more (or less) inherently dangerous than riding in the drops than any other decision you make during a race, even for first timers.
Inexperience in the drops may have you staring at your front tire. Maybe if he'd been in his hoods he would have seen the back of the pack 3 meters earlier. Even 1 meter earlier might have been enough to get his hands out and tuck his head as he crashed.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 06:07 PM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Austin Tx
Posts: 343

Bikes: Felt F2C, Fuji Roubaix Pro

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by waterrockets
Inexperience in the drops may have you staring at your front tire. Maybe if he'd been in his hoods he would have seen the back of the pack 3 meters earlier. Even 1 meter earlier might have been enough to get his hands out and tuck his head as he crashed.
Thank god! Somebody finally gets its. Mike I knew that someone would sit back and think about what I was saying before throwing out their B.S. Guys stop telling me I am wrong, you don't have a clue what your talking about. If you were not at the race, STHU, if you were not right behind him, STHU, if you did not see him DIE, STHU. I am trying to help new riders stay out of the same situation and not end up like him. Stop giving me stupid ass rebuttals about how someone told you this or this is what you think.
Unless you saw what happened and why he was unable to save himself you have absolutely nothing to contribute to this subject. Just like I would have nothing to contribute to saying why someone that you were racing with was killed. I was not there, I did not see it, so I cant possibly know what could have saved his life.

In fact what the hell is wrong with you guys? A guy died right in front of me at a race and all you say is its "not equipment related", "its not because he was in the drops". Thats exactly why he died, case closed end of story, STHU.

Lets make this perfectly clear to all of you. Go get on your bike. Get in the drops riding really slow. Have a friend kick the front wheel out from under you as you ride by. Let me know what you think then. After you recover from your injuries, if you do, go try it at 30 mph.
cbip is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 06:42 PM
  #58  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
So nobody should ride in the drops then?
umd is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 06:44 PM
  #59  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by waterrockets
Inexperience in the drops may have you staring at your front tire. Maybe if he'd been in his hoods he would have seen the back of the pack 3 meters earlier. Even 1 meter earlier might have been enough to get his hands out and tuck his head as he crashed.

I see what you are saying though, and I mostly agree.
loreley is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 07:22 PM
  #60  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
Originally Posted by umd
So nobody should ride in the drops then?
Save the trolls for the 41. In the 33, we don't start going after each other until the last kilo
waterrockets is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 07:35 PM
  #61  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by waterrockets
Save the trolls for the 41. In the 33, we don't start going after each other until the last kilo
I wasn't trying to be a troll, it was a serious question. If its dangerous to ride in the drops for those reasons then maybe none of us should. I said earlier that someone shouldn't be riding in the drops for the first time in a race. A rider shouldn't really be doing anything for the first time in a race, that's what training is for. That's why we always jump on people that say you shouldn't need to do group rides before racing. So, sure, some people shouldn't be in the drops because they lack the experience in them. But I just don't see why it would be an issue for a first-time racer to be in the drops if they had experience riding in the drops.
umd is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 08:32 PM
  #62  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
If someone's experienced in the drops, then you're probably ok, as you're used to looking up the road. There's still the risk of loss of focus, and being in the drops can be more dangerous in that situation. Experience can help with the focus as well, even just from not being as nervous.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 08:37 PM
  #63  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I could see that, but that would seem to apply to any time you are in the drops and/or being pushed to your limit. I'm not trying to take away from what happened to the guy that died, that was clearly tragic. But it sounds more like a freak accident than anything.
umd is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 09:28 PM
  #64  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Austin Tx
Posts: 343

Bikes: Felt F2C, Fuji Roubaix Pro

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by umd
I could see that, but that would seem to apply to any time you are in the drops and/or being pushed to your limit. I'm not trying to take away from what happened to the guy that died, that was clearly tragic. But it sounds more like a freak accident than anything.
umd, I am not trying to argue with you, I am sure you mean well and I absolutely agree that the drops are a great place to ride if you are an experienced racer. I am letting new racers understand that until you become proficient at riding in the drops and have many races under your belt, don't do it. The physics involved with a recovery from a front wheel wash out really can and probably will lead to a serious accident. It really has more to do with the time to reach out and give yourself protection before impact. If you are in the drops your that much closer to the ground to start with, you will most likely have more weight over your front tire, your head will be much lower and your hands will be under you instead of out in front of you. As an example, think of the Jens Voight crash. Remember how he washed out and face planted last year. It was horrible, but how where his chances changed because of the position he was riding in. Go look at the crash and I think you may at least acknowledge that maybe what I am saying has more validity than some are giving it.
cbip is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 09:31 PM
  #65  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree
umd is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 10:01 PM
  #66  
moth -----> flame
 
Beaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 5,916

Bikes: 11 CAAD 10-4, 07 Specialized Roubaix Comp, 98 Peugeot Horizon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Well this turned into quite the thread in the space of a day.

Originally Posted by waterrockets
We had a death in Cat 5 last year, and the rider died in his first race, possibly because of an overreaction due to a lot of nervousness. Big pool of blood on the tarmac and a lifeless body lying there.
That's just awful: sorry that you and cbip had to experience this

Originally Posted by MDcatV
^sounds like a good program hopefully it's a model for other districts to consider following in promoting a safer racing environment. cbip good on you for your active participation.
As rydaddy noted, the Early Bird program in NorCal is excellent, this is what I was participating in. For a paltry $15 get to participate in a 1hr clinic with a mentor - practicing different skills over a 4wk period, such as pack riding, cornering several riders abreast, riding in the drops, attacking etc. Then you get a 40min crit - the mentors ride along with the group and "encourage" you to close gaps etc., or occasionally offer praise if you're riding well, but don't really interfere with the race in any way. It was an excellent experience; going through the clinic before riding in my first crit made a HUGE difference to how prepared I was to participate, and knowing that practically everyone else in the race had gone through the same clinic was also helpful. Props to NCNCA and the mentors who spent their Sundays teaching the noobs.
__________________
BF, in a nutshell
Beaker is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 10:11 PM
  #67  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
For clarity, I wasn't there. I'm sure it was horrifying though. My teammate was off the front when it happened, and was first back around to the accident scene before EMTs got there on the next lap. He sat up, completely horrified, and stopped racing.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 02-09-10, 10:13 PM
  #68  
Writin' stuff
 
ZeCanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Durango, CO
Posts: 3,784
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 4 Posts
I have to say I'm with umd on this one. Being in the drops puts more weight over your front wheel, which is beneficial in literally every single instance except the one cbip describes. And that instance is rare. You're just as likely to get killed by a squirrel falling through your sunroof on the way to your race.

I had two wheels chopped out from underneath me, while in the drops, doing 30+ mph (both were last lap of pro crits) in the last year. I came out of both just fine. Changing behavior based on one instance in favor of a position that I would argue is more dangerous (poor braking, terrible cornering, poor weight distribution, etc) seems foolish. Please understand that I'm not downplaying the tragedy you witnessed, merely explaining my own position based on years of racing, and crashing.

I also run clinics during collegiate racing, and recommend that all riders stay in their drops for safety reasons. And I won't be changing that.
ZeCanon is offline  
Old 02-10-10, 12:29 AM
  #69  
Senior Member
 
vladav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 259
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cbip,

Kudo's to you and your region for the "in-race mentor" program - fantastic reaction to a horrible tragedy. (re-reading I guess it wasn't a reaction to this tragedy, but still.) I'm truly sorry anyone would have to see what you saw.

Some rules-of-thumb can be reactive for all the right reasons, yet have myopic real-life effects. Just please for a moment consider if a mental video of what happened and resulting rule-of-thumb may be protecting *you from having to relive that, more than it offers real-life protection to those applying it. Bless your heart, I can't imagine having that replay in my head, eesh. Still, maybe a holistic rule of thumb could be to grab the bars wherever the noob is best accustomed to?

Consider what the rule of thumb would have been if you witnessed someone die after hooking bars because they were riding on the hoods?

Best wishes dude and keep up the efforts to keep noobs as safe as possible
vladav is offline  
Old 02-10-10, 08:43 AM
  #70  
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Liked 91 Times in 38 Posts
Originally Posted by ZeCanon
I have to say I'm with umd on this one. Being in the drops puts more weight over your front wheel, which is beneficial in literally every single instance except the one cbip describes. And that instance is rare. You're just as likely to get killed by a squirrel falling through your sunroof on the way to your race.

I had two wheels chopped out from underneath me, while in the drops, doing 30+ mph (both were last lap of pro crits) in the last year. I came out of both just fine. Changing behavior based on one instance in favor of a position that I would argue is more dangerous (poor braking, terrible cornering, poor weight distribution, etc) seems foolish. Please understand that I'm not downplaying the tragedy you witnessed, merely explaining my own position based on years of racing, and crashing.

I also run clinics during collegiate racing, and recommend that all riders stay in their drops for safety reasons. And I won't be changing that.
If someone has some familiarity and comfort in the drops, yes, they probably should race that way for their first time. But...

What percentage of cornering speed to you think the 5s are rolling compared to you in your P/1 events? Cat 5s rarely slide out on dry ground and weight distribution just isn't as important. From what I've seen in races, if a 5 loses it in a corner, they were chopped or just plain too scared to turn sharp enough. Maybe they over-react from a pedal scrape.

Consider this: you're telling them to radically change their position and the location of their brake levers, 4 minutes before their first race. How would you feel if someone told you to drop your bars by 10cm after you've warmed up for your next crit? We've got a lot more experience and can adapt, but not these literal first-timers.

I agree completely that drops in general are much safer, and that's how I ride, but when you're talking about someone who actually gets more scared in the drops, making them race that way just isn't smart. We're talking about the last conversation you have with someone before the first time they toe the line. This isn't the time to get them used to being in the drops. Tell them to do their cool down and entire next week in the drops, sure.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 02-10-10, 08:59 AM
  #71  
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 5 Posts
Doing the mentoring gig I only advise people to go to the drops if they are trying to chase back on, otherwise I leave it to their comfort zone. At all times I tell them to look up the road, and when we came into the final few laps I rode along side and reminded them to keep looking up the road, not at the tire in front of them.

Reading through this it's a good reminder about being able to reach the brakes from various positions, and the value of keeping a finger or two on the lever. The Faustian bargain with this is that we try to encourage the 5's to limit their use of the brakes to when they are actually needed, and not as a substitute for poor pack positioning.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 02-10-10, 10:36 AM
  #72  
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,620

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1322 Post(s)
Liked 1,297 Times in 555 Posts
Originally Posted by umd
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree
+1 - I just can't in good conscious go on debating this going after each point presented, etc. I have tried to stay a little general and unhelpful in my responses in the hopes of not seeming to attack someone concerning details of a tragic event I was not around to even witness.

That said, I can't in good conscious condone the advice to newbs to never ride in the drops. The idea that riders have no idea how to handle their rigs in a race in the drops just doesn't hold water. We've all been there. It's not like you're talking to a group of people who haven't all been through the exact same learning curve.

Heads-up racing has and always will be the key. It's the most beneficial thing a newb can learn. It has more impact than any advice about position, etc. when it comes to keeping racers safer.

I think we can all agree that mishaps in new racers fields are most likely the result of people over-reacting when they find themselves in situations they have never found themselves in before. That is why I have always felt it most beneficial to have the racer as comfortable as possible. If that means for that racer they are more comfortable with the control of their rig while in the drops - then they should be in the drops. Period.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
st3venb
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing
46
08-14-12 10:59 AM
UmneyDurak
Northern California
6
07-05-11 07:13 PM
aicabsolut
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing
50
07-07-10 05:58 AM
Pt_Lumberjack
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing
45
03-30-10 07:22 PM
Cleave
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing
14
03-09-10 12:26 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.