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Seeking input on training plan.

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Seeking input on training plan.

Old 04-26-12, 06:21 PM
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Seeking input on training plan.

I have never done a proper training plan for rides or racing, so bear with me and educate me along the way. I have read the Powermeter book by Coggan, but still reading it again for a second time.

I am doing a century in 8 weeks exactly with 13000+ feet of climbing. I currently live and train in south FL, so no mountains or even hills to train on. 100% flat roads, but windy most times. I do have access to a power meter and my measured FTP as of last week in about 230. I regularly ride 150-200 miles/week. I know I can finish the ride, but I want to do it in a decent time for myself (whatever that is) without breaking any records. So, here is my self made training plan. Please critique it to death and add or subtract anything you think would be helpful. Keep in mind I don't race nor have any desire to. I just want to get better and faster/stronger for personal satisfaction.

Sunday: Long ride of 4.5 hr at 70-80% FTP
Monday: no ride or recovery 1 hr ride at 50-60%FTP
Tuesday: 2x20 min at FTP and 1 Hr at 80% FTP. Will try 3x20 min at FTP during weeks 6+7.
wed: 1 hr at 80-90% FTP
thursday: recovery 1 hr at 50-65 FTP
Friday: 3x10 min FTP plus 1 hr at 80% FTP
Saturday:2-2.5 hr ride at <80% FTP

Week 8: no intervals. Easier rides 1-3 hr.

I certainly want to get stronger and faster at the same time even though I am going to pace myself during the actual ride. My main questions are:

1. Will this plan make me stronger while climbing? If not how should I alter it to make me stronger on the climbing portion specially.
2. Does this seem reasonable for an 8 week plan? If not, suggestions?
3. Any suggestions to modify this particular plan or do you have a different plan to follow that would work better for these purposes?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 04-26-12, 07:46 PM
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Please don't take what I say the wrong way. We have actually ridden together once with substructure and kensuf on the non-existent hills of central Florida. I think that it was over a Thanksgiving weekend a few years ago. I was the guy that you said was a "camel" because I hardly drank any water.

Concentrate on dropping a few pounds. You were fit enough to survive the ride you describe then, but being a little lighter would make it easier. "Racer" intervals will not actually make what you want to do that much easier. Instead I'd look at LOTS of Zone 2 with a decrease in caloric intake and drop some weight while building endurance.

And where the F is this ride? Not Florida, for sure!
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Old 04-26-12, 08:03 PM
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A few thoughts -- and I still have lots to learn myself (i.e., this might be the blind leading the blind)!!!

1) Having a nice 5 hour or so ride in there is good,
2) For Tuesday, you can do five 5-minute intervals to add some variety should you get bored of the 20min intervals.
3) For Wednesday, I question technically that you will be able to 60min at ftp. I interpret ftp as the absolute best you could do in "stp" like conditions for an hour. Theoretically, it can be achieved, but, practically, I don't think one can make it. Nevertheless, you can try to hit it "in spirit." I have a feeling that will be a tough workout after the Tuesday workout. But, if you do it, good for you.
4) I don't see any training above ftp? You might want to think about that as I believe it could help raise your ftp, which, in turn, could help your performance.

Given your purpose and that you are new to this, you might consider being flexible and looking to learn and adapt as you go along. A plan is great, no doubt!! But, personally, when trying something new, I tend to look for opportunities to experiment and learn.

In the end, it sounds reasonable. I sense that you feel your base conditioning is fine. If not, consider throwing in another longish ride during the week,

If you have a trainer, seriously consider using it and raising your front wheel to simulate whatever grade you like, and then crank away.
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Old 04-26-12, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bostongarden
3) For Wednesday, I question technically that you will be able to 60min at ftp. I interpret ftp as the absolute best you could do in "stp" like conditions for an hour. Theoretically, it can be achieved, but, practically, I don't think one can make it.
Depends on the rest between those 3x20min at FTP, I would think. In any case it would be hard, but with 10 min easy between each 20min session, I think it would be doable. I'm assuming here that OP's FTP is based on a 20-minute power test, so that he's been able to put out 105% of FTP over 20 minutes at least at some point in the recent past. This would be three slightly less intense intervals, with some rest in between. I'd expect to see some fading from the first to the third interval.
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Old 04-26-12, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by plantrob
Depends on the rest between those 3x20min at FTP, I would think. In any case it would be hard, but with 10 min easy between each 20min session, I think it would be doable. I'm assuming here that OP's FTP is based on a 20-minute power test, so that he's been able to put out 105% of FTP over 20 minutes at least at some point in the recent past. This would be three slightly less intense intervals, with some rest in between. I'd expect to see some fading from the first to the third interval.
I was referring to Wednesday, which indicates 60 minutes at ftp!!
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Old 04-27-12, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bostongarden
I was referring to Wednesday, which indicates 60 minutes at ftp!!
Oops, missed that. Yes, that would be hard, especially after Tuesday's ride (as you already said)
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Old 04-27-12, 06:38 AM
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your Tues/Wed combo is a bit ridiculous. While FTP is the maximum power you can hold for one hour, that is for a rested and motivated individual. After an hour at FTP on Tuesday, I don't think you have any chance (no dig at you, I don't think anyone really has any chance). Even 2x20 at FTP (2 min rest) is a serious workout, and is a good amount of work without excessive recovery costs. I also don't know anyone (though my background is more for tri training so someone can school me here if necessary) who will actually do 60 min at FTP in training. 40k TT? Sure, go for it, but you're only gonna hit it if you're reasonably rested (if you hit it tired, your FTP is too low).

Hills aren't magic. You weigh a certain amount. You put out a certain amount of power. Those factors combine to decide your speed up the hill. Lower weight, increase power (or both) and you will get to the top faster. If you expect your centry to be a lot of work-rest-work-rest-ect due to the up-down-up-down, try to mimic that in your long ride. Use the length of the climbs in your ride (a few long ones or a lot of short ones) to dictate your work/rest periods. oh, and make sure you have the right gearing
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Old 04-27-12, 07:22 AM
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I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with the racing forum. I'm inclined to move it lest someone justify its existence here.
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Old 04-27-12, 07:30 AM
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i think you should just ride your bike and not really worry about "training" with intervals and threshold power, etc. that century is probably going to take the better part of 7 hours, correct? i'd do 5+ hrs. on saturday, then 3+ hrs. on sunday, take m and fri off completely and do 1.5 to 2.0 hrs./day on tu/wed/thurs. that'll give you on the order of 12 to 14 hrs/week, with 2 recovery days, which i would think result in having the physical tools in place to complete your ride.
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Old 04-27-12, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV
that century is probably going to take the better part of 7 hours, correct?
7? I've done some rides with 12000+ feet and it takes me 9+.

I think the justification for the thread here is the people here (not me) know about training and can give the best advice on the forum.

Merlin lives in flatland and he has done the Everest Challenge.
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Old 04-27-12, 07:53 AM
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Using FTP based intervals to get ready for a big climbing century is like taking ballet to avoid a sunburn.

So to answer:

1) Wrong question
2) Not for what you're doing.
3) You more or less repeated #2 here. But here's what I'd do: Go outside. Check wind direction. Ride hard into the wind for a long time. Come home. Rest. Repeat. Take a day and ride around in the 53/11 for as many hours as you can stand or do some long high rep weight sessions for your legs. You need endurance strength. At hour six you're going to care about your FTP as much as you'll care about the current weather in Dubai.

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Old 04-27-12, 08:15 AM
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Depending on his gearing do you think cadence work would be valuable? I know that I need some spin-it-to-win-it time in low gears to help me stay in contact with the mashers on hills, but granted the biggest climb I've done is 3k and that was once.
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Old 04-27-12, 11:02 AM
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I'm with Ex. Long ride, rest, tempo into the wind, rest, long ride, rest. Your time will be your time. Forget about speed. Spend your time figuring out how to feed yourself during the long rides. Your chances of suffering are much higher if you don't get it right.
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Old 04-27-12, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by big john
7? I've done some rides with 12000+ feet and it takes me 9+.

I think the justification for the thread here is the people here (not me) know about training and can give the best advice on the forum.

Merlin lives in flatland and he has done the Everest Challenge.
it was a guess. the point i was trying to convey is that it's going to be a long time in the saddle, so, the OP should spend lots of time in the saddle for prep and not worry so much about 3x10s and 2x20s, etc.
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Old 04-27-12, 12:30 PM
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Are all of the comments above made with the understanding that he has been riding 150-200 miles/week?
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Old 04-27-12, 12:44 PM
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Eating and drinking enough will be a big challenge. You will be burning a lot of calories. Long hours of Zone 2 in your training will build up your ability to burn fat while riding. You will need this, but it won't get you to the end. Eating will be essential.

On your long rides try different foods and drinks and see which ones agree with you and which ones don't. It sucks to find out that your body rejects the food you brought when you are 80 miles into a ride.
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Old 04-27-12, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by miwoodar
Are all of the comments above made with the understanding that he has been riding 150-200 miles/week?
That could be five 2 hour long rides. That won't get you ready for 6+ hours of hard work.
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Old 04-27-12, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsiegs
your Tues/Wed combo is a bit ridiculous. While FTP is the maximum power you can hold for one hour, that is for a rested and motivated individual. After an hour at FTP on Tuesday, I don't think you have any chance (no dig at you, I don't think anyone really has any chance). Even 2x20 at FTP (2 min rest) is a serious workout, and is a good amount of work without excessive recovery costs. I also don't know anyone (though my background is more for tri training so someone can school me here if necessary) who will actually do 60 min at FTP in training. 40k TT? Sure, go for it, but you're only gonna hit it if you're reasonably rested (if you hit it tired, your FTP is too low).

Hills aren't magic. You weigh a certain amount. You put out a certain amount of power. Those factors combine to decide your speed up the hill. Lower weight, increase power (or both) and you will get to the top faster. If you expect your centry to be a lot of work-rest-work-rest-ect due to the up-down-up-down, try to mimic that in your long ride. Use the length of the climbs in your ride (a few long ones or a lot of short ones) to dictate your work/rest periods. oh, and make sure you have the right gearing
You are correct. That was supposed to be 80-90% FTP. In other words, an Hr of effort but not extremely hard effort.

Originally Posted by MDcatV
i think you should just ride your bike and not really worry about "training" with intervals and threshold power, etc. that century is probably going to take the better part of 7 hours, correct? i'd do 5+ hrs. on saturday, then 3+ hrs. on sunday, take m and fri off completely and do 1.5 to 2.0 hrs./day on tu/wed/thurs. that'll give you on the order of 12 to 14 hrs/week, with 2 recovery days, which i would think result in having the physical tools in place to complete your ride.
Thanks for your input. However, finishing the ride is not the goal here. I can go there right now and complete it. Again, I ave done rides like these before and have completed them with not much of specific "training" for them. Doing that would be simply repeating what I have already accomplished. I want to do better time wise, and have never done a proper and structured training plan, so I figured this would be as good time and opportunity as ever to do so.

Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Using FTP based intervals to get ready for a big climbing century is like taking ballet to avoid a sunburn.

So to answer:

1) Wrong question
2) Not for what you're doing.
3) You more or less repeated #2 here.
But here's what I'd do: Go outside. Check wind direction. Ride hard into the wind for a long time. Come home. Rest. Repeat. Take a day and ride around in the 53/11 for as many hours as you can stand or do some long high rep weight sessions for your legs. You need endurance strength. At hour six you're going to care about your FTP as much as you'll care about the current weather in Dubai.
I get your point here, but also see above. I thought these types of structured training plans were supposed to improved your endurance strength. Correct me if I am wrong by all means, and educate me in the process. I could really care less what my FTP is really. I put it as a reference in case it was helpful to anyone to give some advice in how to modify this plan. I don't compete with others, so tracking a number is not something I've done ever. I did do the test a week ago out of curiosity and to use as a frame of reference given I am reading Coggan's book and have a power meter at my disposal.

Originally Posted by mollusk
Eating and drinking enough will be a big challenge. You will be burning a lot of calories. Long hours of Zone 2 in your training will build up your ability to burn fat while riding. You will need this, but it won't get you to the end. Eating will be essential.

On your long rides try different foods and drinks and see which ones agree with you and which ones don't. It sucks to find out that your body rejects the food you brought when you are 80 miles into a ride.
@mollusk, I do remember you quite well. Points well taken. Since we met for that ride, I have lost about 20-25 Lb and plan to drop another 10-15 in the next 2 months before this ride. Over the last few years, I have tried several foods and have settled pretty well on what works for me for shorter and longer rides. Same with the gearing, so I have those 2 sorted out.

I apologize if I gave the impression that I am trying to complete a century with climbing for the first time. I have done lots of rides in the past with some serious climbing (Alps, Dolomites, etc. included). I have suffered tons through some and have enjoyed most of them. I just want to do little better time and pace wise for me, not for time to brag. I got over that a long time ago.

Originally Posted by gsteinb
I'm honestly not sure what this has to do with the racing forum. I'm inclined to move it lest someone justify its existence here.
I also figured I would post it here given it seems the only group in BF that talks about or understands power meters and training plans are here. The training sub-forum gets little to no traffic. Besides this would be useful for many other applications, not just mine. Oh, and given the content of some of the threads here, I also figured it was more than relevant. Please feel free to move it if you see fit though.
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Old 04-27-12, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dgasmd
I get your point here, but also see above. I thought these types of structured training plans were supposed to improved your endurance strength. Correct me if I am wrong by all means, and educate me in the process.
Horse and courses. Doing 3 x 10's isn't going to give you good legs at 7 hours. These are designed to build aerobic capacity. Unless you need to compete at the front end of this ride with truly elite athletes your aerobic capacity will not be much of a factor, think of where your HR will be during most of this event. Muscle fatigue will be a factor though.

What you'll find is that terms like "endurance strength" are used in different context for different goals. If you're going to do 20m intervals at a % of FTP, do them at the back end of a long ride. But mostly you're building a diesel. You want to be good at 7 hours ride 3-4 hours hard. Do the 53/11 thing to recruit slow twitch muscle fibers. Rest as needed.

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Old 04-27-12, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Horse and courses. Doing 3 x 10's isn't going to give you good legs at 7 hours. These are designed to build aerobic capacity. Unless you need to compete at the front end of this ride with truly elite athletes your aerobic capacity will not be much of a factor, think of where your HR will be during most of this event. Muscle fatigue will be a factor though.

What you'll find is that terms like "endurance strength" are used in different context for different goals. If you're going to do 20m intervals at a % of FTP, do them at the back end of a long ride. But mostly you're building a diesel. You want to be good at 7 hours ride 3-4 hours hard. Do the 53/11 thing to recruit slow twitch muscle fibers. Rest as needed.
+1

The "big gear" rides will pay huge dividends when climbing after a long day in the saddle. RacerEx is telling you God's own truth. Listen to it.

It isn't really rocket science. If it was I would "rule", but alas it is not.
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Old 04-27-12, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dgasmd
@mollusk, I do remember you quite well. Points well taken. Since we met for that ride, I have lost about 20-25 Lb and plan to drop another 10-15 in the next 2 months before this ride. Over the last few years, I have tried several foods and have settled pretty well on what works for me for shorter and longer rides. Same with the gearing, so I have those 2 sorted out.
Awesome on the weight loss since we last rode together. With that much weight loss from then you should be good to go.

Follow the RacerEx idea of building leg strength. At some point in this ride you will have to dig deep and just power over something. I helps that when your mind makes a promise your body can fulfil. (This is a slow pitch to rkwaki and a nod to 'Little Feat' fans out there.)
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