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Entire race DQd for centerline violations?

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Entire race DQd for centerline violations?

Old 04-26-10, 07:34 AM
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Entire race DQd for centerline violations?

Ever had this happen? It appears that's what happened to my race saturday (Wente RR, M45 4/5). At the start the ref said that they'd DQ the race if there were too many centerline violations. There were a few, and the moto ref went up and talked quietly to them. No one was trying to move up, they just went across the line by 6 inches. The ref did not relegate them to the back.

I personally did not think that the centerline violations I saw were that egregious. But I was about 30 sec back of the leaders at the finish so I would not have seen what they did on the last 1/2 mile. Assuming they stayed in the lane, I think that DQing an entire field is unfair. It seems more like punishment or making an example than a concern for safety.
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Old 04-26-10, 07:37 AM
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they threatened this in the second Johnny Cake race. it was only a threat though.

reason: the first JC had some really stupid yellow line attacks that resulted in crashes

your example seems heavy-handed. sounds more like refs who are full of themselves.
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Old 04-26-10, 07:58 AM
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This was the rule at my first RR of the season, but we weren't DQ'd, despite a few minor infractions that I saw. They said we get two warnings though. The first warning was before the race start

It's pretty simple though: if they say don't cross or we shut down the race, don't cross. It's not whether or not 6" is close to the center line, or if people weren't trying to move up. If they crossed, they crossed.
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Old 04-26-10, 08:02 AM
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meh. plenty of times I've been forced over the line by sketchy swerving next to me. As long as you don't improve your position, it's not to be punished.

3B. Riding Conduct
3B1. Center Line. If a course is not closed to traffic, all
competitors must keep to the right of the center line or
enforcement line, but may pass on either side of another rider
[warning for accidental crossing of the center line with no
advance in position; relegation or disqualification for
advancing position; 10 day suspension for a flagrantly
dangerous attack].
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Old 04-26-10, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
meh. plenty of times I've been forced over the line by sketchy swerving next to me. As long as you don't improve your position, it's not to be punished.

3B. Riding Conduct
3B1. Center Line. If a course is not closed to traffic, all
competitors must keep to the right of the center line or
enforcement line, but may pass on either side of another rider
[warning for accidental crossing of the center line with no
advance in position; relegation or disqualification for
advancing position; 10 day suspension for a flagrantly
dangerous attack].
Don't forget the part where the officials can make and enforce new rules in the interest of safety. We've had a horrible center line violation problem here and a couple guys almost hit a vehicle head on. The tougher rule is reasonable in our case.

In our case, a sketchy swerve is ok, but it may result in receipt of the 2nd warning. It's funny how much better people were about it overall though.
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Old 04-26-10, 08:30 AM
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i've been in a field where this was threatened, the refs actually stopped us on the course to scold.

i've heard 3rd or 4th hand of this happening, but not been directly involved in an instance where it has.

i dont think it's a bad thing. the yellow line rule is there for 1 reason and 1 reason only, to keep racers alive. alive is good.
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Old 04-26-10, 08:33 AM
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The crossing the line (that I saw) was on back roads with no traffic, usually when someone would miss-shift and come to a stop on a narrow kicker climb. There was a lot of that for some reason, it happened on pretty much every lap.

I agree that if you cross the line and get hit, you're just as injured no matter what your intentions were. But if it was really that unsafe, wouldn't they neutralize the race and send the riders home, rather than let the race continue without telling the riders that they were no longer racing?
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Old 04-26-10, 09:12 AM
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the centerline rule is not only about passing other riders. in many instances, the locals do not want the bike race on their roads. they will sit in their yards and take pictures of anyone going over the line and submit it to the sherriff in an attempt to prevent the race from getting a permit the next year. when you see that guy passing on your left, they aren't just gaining positions; they are jeopardizing future editions of the race.
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Old 04-26-10, 09:30 AM
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Why do masters fields seem so sketchy?

Did the 1-4's have this problem? (just curious)
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Old 04-26-10, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by fly:yes/land:no View Post
the centerline rule is not only about passing other riders. in many instances, the locals do not want the bike race on their roads. they will sit in their yards and take pictures of anyone going over the line and submit it to the sherriff in an attempt to prevent the race from getting a permit the next year. when you see that guy passing on your left, they aren't just gaining positions; they are jeopardizing future editions of the race.
Is it illegal for a bike to make a pass on the left side of a road?
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Old 04-26-10, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Why do masters fields seem so sketchy?

Did the 1-4's have this problem? (just curious)
Masters fields are not sketchy..just the opposite..however in open masters fields the back of the pack is usually populated by 4's who are just hanging on for dear life...tired inexperienced bike racers are dangerous no matter the age. In the vast majority of masters races I've done I have not heard the phrase "inside" or "brakes" or "hold your line" or any of the other stupid sh%T I've heard in when I was racing in the 4's.
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Old 04-26-10, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo View Post
Masters fields are not sketchy
Please tell that to the Masters 30+ 4/5 field I raced in yesterday. I got the feeling that some of them had been watching Lance race, or reading up on tactics, more than they had been training and/or racing.

Not to say I wouldn't get shelled in a Masters A/B's race, but just because the race is labeled "Masters" doesn't mean it's safe, or fast, or smooth, or anything. Even the organizer said before our race yesterday, "For some reason this [masters] field has had the most crashes this season - keep it safe guys."

Sure, we all know that "masters have families & jobs to get home to," as the line goes, and you always hear someone in the field say something about "keep it safe" before we roll out, but I think the decreased reaction times, or something, are wreaking havoc on that field. Or is it just the 5's?

Anyway, more on topic, I think it's valid for the ref to abort the race, especially if the field was warned about it..
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Old 04-26-10, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Please tell that to the Masters 30+ 4/5 field I raced in yesterday.
You forgot to read the fine print:

Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo View Post
however in open masters fields the back of the pack is usually populated by 4's who are just hanging on for dear life...tired inexperienced bike racers are dangerous no matter the age.

Last edited by tspek; 04-26-10 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 04-26-10, 10:20 AM
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Certainly makes for a very interesting results page.

https://www.usacycling.org/results/i...ermit=2010-821
(scroll down to "Men - 4/5 - Master - 45-99")
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Old 04-26-10, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Please tell that to the Masters 30+ 4/5 field I raced in yesterday. I got the feeling that some of them had been watching Lance race, or reading up on tactics, more than they had been training and/or racing.
I don't think most of us think of that as a "Masters" race. It's just a 4/5 race divided by age.

Given the age of the membership in USA Cycling, I would think a lot of places the 4/5 +30 field would be larger than a 4/5 under 30 field. And larger fields tend to equal more potential for crashes.

Masters 35, and Masters 45 races are a much different thing, given that a decent percentage of the Field are 2's, and lots of places you have ex pro's and 1's.
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Old 04-26-10, 11:15 AM
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In our region, it's pretty much self-policing.

I've used this example before: at the Frankenmuth Road Race with no painted center line and no moto support, the Pro-1-2 field used the whole road freely until an oncoming car showed up. Everyone would yell "Car up!" We'd all move over until it passed. Then we'd take the whole road again.
It wasn't a problem at all.
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Old 04-26-10, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I don't think most of us think of that as a "Masters" race. It's just a 4/5 race divided by age.
Oh, so it wasn't actually masters, got it..

So the fact that the average age (and weight for that matter) of the riders was higher than usual, and lots of gray hair in the field, was just a coincidence? Believe me, this was a masters field. Maybe not the best one around, but I'm not sure how much more "masters" the race could have been..

Given the age of the membership in USA Cycling, I would think a lot of places the 4/5 +30 field would be larger than a 4/5 under 30 field. And larger fields tend to equal more potential for crashes.
Our race only had 51 people, whereas the 4's had 65, and the 5's s had 40 in the field.

Masters 35, and Masters 45 races are a much different thing, given that a decent percentage of the Field are 2's, and lots of places you have ex pro's and 1's.
Well I don't doubt an Open field would be a whole different ball game, as I stated before... But you're saying a 35+ field would have made the difference?
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Old 04-26-10, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Oh, so it wasn't actually masters, got it..

So the fact that the average age (and weight for that matter) of the riders was higher than usual, and lots of gray hair in the field, was just a coincidence? Believe me, this was a masters field. Maybe not the best one around, but I'm not sure how much more "masters" the race could have been..
Most masters races have 50 year old former/current cat 2's in it...a Master 4/5 race is a 4/5 race with old dudes, they are still 4/5 racers with 4/5 handling abilities.
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Old 04-26-10, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I don't think most of us think of that as a "Masters" race. It's just a 4/5 race divided by age.

Given the age of the membership in USA Cycling, I would think a lot of places the 4/5 +30 field would be larger than a 4/5 under 30 field. And larger fields tend to equal more potential for crashes.

Masters 35, and Masters 45 races are a much different thing, given that a decent percentage of the Field are 2's, and lots of places you have ex pro's and 1's.
Here they often have lower category masters races, but I wouldn't say that they are simply just "divided by age" because the 4s and 5s have no age restrictions. I.e. It's not 30+ and under 30, it's 30+ and open. Masters just means "old" and in bike racing "old" means 30

The fast & smooth masters races are the ones with the 1s & 2s regardless of the age; i.e. a 30+ open is going to be pretty much the same as a 35+ or 45+.
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Old 04-26-10, 12:03 PM
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Was this confirmed by the promoter? I just assumed the camera malfunctioned.
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Old 04-26-10, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Oh, so it wasn't actually masters, got it..

So the fact that the average age (and weight for that matter) of the riders was higher than usual, and lots of gray hair in the field, was just a coincidence? Believe me, this was a masters field. Maybe not the best one around, but I'm not sure how much more "masters" the race could have been..
Around these parts, masters races are only cats1-4, no 5's. These races are usually faster/harder then traditional cat 3/4 race and a lot smoother. In your case the key point was not masters but 4/5. It was a master's age race for beginner racers. Most races with a bunch of 4/5's is gonna be sketchy.
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Old 04-26-10, 12:27 PM
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As an aside I was at the back of the pack all day long as we whittled down the field and from where I was it didn't look like there were that many center line violations. Most of the time riders crossed the center line to avoid someone who had dropped their chain, or in on case of one webcor rider, broken his chain. Based on what I observed the moto ref probably warned 2-3 riders, and each time the offenders apologized and the moto ref said no problem.
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Old 04-26-10, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Please tell that to the Masters 30+ 4/5 field I raced in yesterday. I got the feeling that some of them had been watching Lance race, or reading up on tactics, more than they had been training and/or racing.

Not to say I wouldn't get shelled in a Masters A/B's race, but just because the race is labeled "Masters" doesn't mean it's safe, or fast, or smooth, or anything. Even the organizer said before our race yesterday, "For some reason this [masters] field has had the most crashes this season - keep it safe guys."

Sure, we all know that "masters have families & jobs to get home to," as the line goes, and you always hear someone in the field say something about "keep it safe" before we roll out, but I think the decreased reaction times, or something, are wreaking havoc on that field. Or is it just the 5's?

Anyway, more on topic, I think it's valid for the ref to abort the race, especially if the field was warned about it..
that's not a masters race, it's a 4/5 race with old guys. Why would you think it would be any less sketchy than a normal 4/5 race?
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Old 04-26-10, 12:59 PM
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i suspect the officials got a directive from usac this year re vigorously enforcing the centerline rule. i know our local officials have been really stressing it along with the no race radio rule at staging. the only rr i did this year with a centerline rule was enthusiactically officiated with relegations, lots of them. even for non-egregious violations and those where the violator was not advancing his position.

i have absolutely no problem with vigorous enforcement of the centerline rule, even when it applies to me ... and yes, i've been relegated before
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Old 04-26-10, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
that's not a masters race, it's a 4/5 race with old guys. Why would you think it would be any less sketchy than a normal 4/5 race?
I was just surprised that it seemed worse than a straight 4/5's race, that's all...
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