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A different 4 to 3 question

Old 05-04-10, 08:13 AM
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A different 4 to 3 question

Hi all,

After reading the post yesterday about getting to Cat 3, another question popped into my head about the ten Top 10 finishes option for catting up.

In a mixed category race, i.e. 3/4, do you have to finish Top 10 overall, or just among the Cat 4s racing?

Thanks.
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Old 05-04-10, 08:16 AM
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You have to finish top 10 overall, unless the flyer states that the 3s and the 4s are scored separately. Scoring Men 3 and Men 4 separately in the same race is rare.
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Old 05-04-10, 08:17 AM
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there is only 1 race going on. it might be scored separately by the promoter but that is not applicable to usac for upgrades. where you finish is where you finish. for example if you're a 4 and you finish 1st among the 4s but 23rd overall, you're finish for upgrade purposes is 23rd.

BUT, some upgrade coordinators might handle differently so when preparing your race resume for requesting an upgrade, provide both your separately scored result and overall result.
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Old 05-04-10, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by efficiency View Post
You have to finish top 10 overall, unless the flyer states that the 3s and the 4s are scored separately. Scoring Men 3 and Men 4 separately in the same race is rare.
no. in most cases this applies only to the race for prize distribution, not for upgrade points. see my prior post.
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Old 05-04-10, 08:46 AM
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Thanks. I was confused between the prize scoring and points scoring separation.
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Old 05-04-10, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Thanks. I was confused between the prize scoring and points scoring separation.
another note, sometimes scored separately applies to local association best all around rider (BAR) points. for example, in MABRA, there is a BAR for Sr., Cat 3, Novice (Cat 4), and Masters racers. if a category 3/4 race is scored separately, the 1st Cat 3 racer to cross the finish line gets 1st place BAR points for the Cat 3 BAR. even if the 1st Cat 4 finisher is 23rd overall, if the race is scored separately, that racer gets 1st place Novice BAR points. BAR points do NOT equal upgrade points for USAC.
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Old 05-04-10, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
there is only 1 race going on. it might be scored separately by the promoter but that is not applicable to usac for upgrades. where you finish is where you finish. for example if you're a 4 and you finish 1st among the 4s but 23rd overall, you're finish for upgrade purposes is 23rd.

BUT, some upgrade coordinators might handle differently so when preparing your race resume for requesting an upgrade, provide both your separately scored result and overall result.
Does the same apply to a race where, say, cat 2 women race with, but are scored separately from the men? Just curious.
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Old 05-04-10, 10:37 AM
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Old 05-04-10, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by pretzelface View Post
Does the same apply to a race where, say, cat 2 women race with, but are scored separately from the men? Just curious.
stumped by that one. i'm done playing mr. know it all for now.
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Old 05-04-10, 11:32 AM
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The race results I report to USAC include the racer's category, "class" (women, Masters, Juniors), some other stuff. I can't recall everything, but the listings for results include the first, second, third, etc Cat 2, 3 etc.

Example (Event ID 2010-285, i.e. year and then permit number). Note the "1 - Cat2" and other things after the racer's name. I didn't put that in, it came up automatically.

Those without license numbers (they renewed or they have a UCI licence) don't show up in that subset.

110Ryan Serbel (1 - Cat2) Benton, PA 293409 538 CCNS/Charlescoaching.com
29Michael McGinley (1 - Cat1) Plainville, CT 59721 564 Central CT Cycling Club
30Amos Brumble 566 CCB Wheelworks
47Edward Angeli (2 - Cat2) Southington, CT 91227 584 TargetTraining
56Peter Hurst (2 - Cat1) Norwalk, CT 148404 576 Century Road Club Association
65Anthony Alessio (3 - Cat1) Beacon Falls, CT 146429 578 Stage 1/Fusion Think
74Matt Inconiglios (4 - Cat1) Stamford, CT 17360 570 Stage 1/Fusion Think
80Jacob Hacker 582 Unattached9
2Ernest Tautkus (3 - Cat2) Uncasville, CT 107000 560 CCNS
101Connor Sallee (5 - Cat1) Danbury, CT 210129 537 Echappe Equipment Elite Team

hope that helps
cdr

Last edited by carpediemracing; 05-04-10 at 11:33 AM. Reason: put in line breaks in results
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Old 05-04-10, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
there is only 1 race going on. it might be scored separately by the promoter but that is not applicable to usac for upgrades. where you finish is where you finish. for example if you're a 4 and you finish 1st among the 4s but 23rd overall, you're finish for upgrade purposes is 23rd.

BUT, some upgrade coordinators might handle differently so when preparing your race resume for requesting an upgrade, provide both your separately scored result and overall result.
Is this in the rule somewhere? I'll admit I haven't looked, but my guess would be it's more of a discretionary call as you suggest at the end of your post.

I have this situation in a couple of instances. Tour of Bahamas Circuit race was one, I was 2nd in Masters 50. The race was run with a combined field of 3's 4's, Masters 40, Masters 50, and Women's Pro, 1,2,3. Overall I was somewhere around 15th, but I was intentionally marking the guys in my race which was scored seperately, and was trying to win Masters 50, rather than worrying how many Cat 3's were ahead of me.

After the race I asked our District rep if I could count the result for a 3/4 upgrade and he said definitely.
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Old 05-04-10, 12:11 PM
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Taken from Page 23 of the USAC Rulebook:

For the table above and those that follow, note that if the field contains mixed categories (i.e. cat 3-4), then the number of starters is the number of riders that are the same category or higher as the person requesting the upgrade (i.e. in a cat 3-4 combined field, all riders count for a 4 to 3 upgrade, but only the threes count for a 3 to 2 upgrade.
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Old 05-04-10, 12:30 PM
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^^ bd, that doesn't REALLY help, but suggests that racing a 3/4 race is worthless if you're a 3 b/c the 4s in the field don't even count towards the 20 or 50 person field points.

It certainly seems to indicate 11th place, and 1st in the 4s is worth nil in the 4->3 upgrade
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Old 05-04-10, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kudude View Post
It certainly seems to indicate 11th place, and 1st in the 4s is worth nil in the 4->3 upgrade
This is my understanding as well, which has been reinforced by our district upgrade rep.

For upgrade purposes, your absolute finishing position is what counts.
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Old 05-04-10, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
there is only 1 race going on. it might be scored separately by the promoter but that is not applicable to usac for upgrades. where you finish is where you finish. for example if you're a 4 and you finish 1st among the 4s but 23rd overall, you're finish for upgrade purposes is 23rd.

BUT, some upgrade coordinators might handle differently so when preparing your race resume for requesting an upgrade, provide both your separately scored result and overall result.
They seem to take a rather inconsistent approach. When I put in my 4 -> 3 upgrade, they didn't give me full points for one of my wins because they only considered the field size of my own category, even though I won overall. There were over 70 in the combined field but only about 45 in the 4s.

Generally, my understanding is that if they score the races separately, that is what is used for upgrade purposes.
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Old 05-04-10, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kudude View Post
^^ bd, that doesn't REALLY help, but suggests that racing a 3/4 race is worthless if you're a 3 b/c the 4s in the field don't even count towards the 20 or 50 person field points.

It certainly seems to indicate 11th place, and 1st in the 4s is worth nil in the 4->3 upgrade
That interpretation of the rule would seem unreasonable, and would tend to create a bottle neck at Cat 4 in an area that had many combined 3/4 races. Essentially, you'd have to be at a level where you were earning a 3>2 upgrade to get out of Cat 4.

Take a race with a field of 70, split equally between 3's and 4's. If you beat all the 4's, and 70% of the 3's and do that a few times over, you certainly should be a 3. Yet if you read the rule the way some reps apparently are, that person would be a 4 for life.
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Old 05-04-10, 12:53 PM
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Merlin,

If you are a 4 in a 3/4 field, and there are 70 3's and 30 4's, and you get 1st place, you get credit for a field size of 100.

If you are a 3 in a 3/4 field, and there are 70 4's and 30 3's, and you get 1st place, you get credit for a field size of 30.
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Old 05-04-10, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
Merlin,

If you are a 4 in a 3/4 field, and there are 70 3's and 30 4's, and you get 1st place, you get credit for a field size of 100.

If you are a 3 in a 3/4 field, and there are 70 4's and 30 3's, and you get 1st place, you get credit for a field size of 30.
But that wasn't Merlin's point. In your scenario, if you got 11th, but first in the 4s, you beat 60 3s and 29 4s. What do you get towards an upgrade?
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Old 05-04-10, 12:59 PM
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I see the point now.

Yeah, if your area has little or no Cat 4 or Cat 4/5 races, you might be at a disadvantage.
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Old 05-04-10, 01:25 PM
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I'm going to say that this one is "fielder's choice", meaning "it's up to your local rep"
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Old 05-04-10, 01:38 PM
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^ That would be my guess as well.

The results in the Florida Points Series races get broken down by category. I certainly plan on claiming the finishing position reprted for me on those results. Guess I'll see how it goes.

Unless Tim wants to do a lot of research, I think it'd be difficult to even figure out the exact placing in the mixed category races, given how the results are posted.
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Old 05-04-10, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
I see the point now.

Yeah, if your area has little or no Cat 4 or Cat 4/5 races, you might be at a disadvantage.
and even the 4/5 races only count the 4s in your race toward the field size. So if you do a crit with 75 ppl, of which 51 are 5s, and you get 5th: no points.

Point being that combined races are a good 2nd race of the day (e.g. crits). If you are trying to upgrade (read: not umd at the moment who seems content with not trying to get right to the 2s), your focus should be the single category race of the day.
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Old 05-04-10, 01:43 PM
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This is starting to sound like accounting.
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Old 05-04-10, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bostongarden View Post
This is starting to sound like accounting.
My guess is that most reasonable district reps will treat a 4>3 upgrade as a question of whether you have enough experience, and will be competitive enough to not be hazard to others; and try to avoid doing a double entry debit/credit spreadshet breakdown.

If you wanted to be really anal, particularly with the multiple paths for a 4>3 upgrade, the documentation/analysis could be rather burdensome.
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Old 05-04-10, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kudude View Post
read: not umd at the moment who seems content with not trying to get right to the 2s
The 2s don't look fun right now.
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