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Threshold intervals: 8x5' vs. 5x5' (ATTN: ZeCanon)

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Threshold intervals: 8x5' vs. 5x5' (ATTN: ZeCanon)

Old 05-12-10, 01:35 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca View Post
I also have the Adamo saddle and it's the mutt's nutz. The TT bike actually feels better on my soft tissues than the road bike.... crazy, I know. Why dont I ride the adamo on my road bike??
For awhile last year when I was recovering from a prostate infection (it's hell getting old) I actually did have my Adamo Road saddle on my road bike...and loved it. I had to put it much further rearward than I thought, though. One "bonus" for it on the road bike is that it makes it VERY easy to adopt the "sitting on the top tube" descending position and not feel like you're trapped under the nose of the saddle.

If I hadn't recovered enough to go back to using my perfectly good (for me) Toupe saddle on the road bike, I would have bought one for the road bike as well as the TT bike...and I've been thinking about trying out one of the new Adamo Podium saddles that a friend just purchased to try. He says it's a perfect crit saddle. Apparently it makes staying in the drops a no brainer (or, would that be a "no painer"?)
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Old 05-12-10, 01:37 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
I'll definitely look into that. The saddle is the last nagging issue for me. It's not terrible, but it makes long rides, or rides where I'm not going pretty damn hard most of the time, pretty painful. More power to the pedals seems to alleviate the pressure on the saddle, so it's never an issue when I'm racing. Thanks for the advice.
When you try it, don't be afraid to move it WAY further back than you'd think. One tip is that if it feels like the "nose" is too wide (i.e. you get any chafing on the inside of your thighs, etc.) then you're sitting on it too far back, so move the saddle further rearward. Oh, and you "level" it using the saddle rails as a guage, NOT the top of the saddle.
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Old 05-12-10, 01:49 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by tanhalt View Post
When you try it, don't be afraid to move it WAY further back than you'd think. One tip is that if it feels like the "nose" is too wide (i.e. you get any chafing on the inside of your thighs, etc.) then you're sitting on it too far back, so move the saddle further rearward. Oh, and you "level" it using the saddle rails as a guage, NOT the top of the saddle.
Nice, thanks. I just ordered one.

For the 6x5's - most people will have to work into them. There are three ways to do that: 1) less intensity (101-103% FTP), 2) fewer intervals (start with 5), or 3) longer rest interval (1:15-1:30).

#1 is a bad idea, you need to know what the intensity feels like. #2 is a bit better, but again I feel that you need to know what doing 6 feels like. #3 is best, though you will not be getting quite the same benefit, it is probably the best way to ease into the protocol. The intervals will be at the right intensity, and you'll do the correct number of them. Try to get the rest interval down to 60s by the 2nd or 3rd time out, though.
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Old 05-12-10, 01:50 PM
  #79  
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i tried my first a month back and realized that it's nearly impossible to do without a power meter. i know what my threshold HR is, but the ramping up takes 6-7 minutes. alas, i tried to not overshoot things (aimed for 96%, 98%, 100%, 102%, and 104% of LTHR/FTP HR on successive intervals). so in effect, i probably didn't get as much as i could have. damn...
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Old 05-12-10, 01:52 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
i tried my first a month back and realized that it's nearly impossible to do without a power meter.
Yea I experienced the same thing. It's not that bad doing them on the rollers w/o a PM because I just use my "FTP" gear and spin about 5-10 RPM faster. That way I can gauge pretty much how much power I'm putting out. On the road, it's a whole other issue though because of wind, hills, etc. I can't wait to get a PM.
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Old 05-12-10, 01:58 PM
  #81  
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When I first started doing them, I could only complete 4 or 5. By the third time I did the workout I could do all 6. Just takes some mental training.
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Old 05-12-10, 02:01 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
Nice, thanks. I just ordered one.
Which one did you order? IME the Road version (with slightly more padding on the prongs) is easier to get used to...although once your sit bone areas are "accomodated" (sometimes necessary because you aren't spreading your weight over your entire "taint") then even the more lightly padded Race model is fine. If you start out on the Race, it may take some time working up to being able to handle the more localized pressure on your sit bones.
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Old 05-12-10, 02:04 PM
  #83  
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For me it was much easier mentally than doing 2x30's...
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Old 05-12-10, 02:36 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
For me it was much easier mentally than doing 2x30's...
2x20's is like getting into a cold swimming pool one inch at a time and one leg at a time

6x5x1's makes me think that I have Tourette's Syndrome during the last one
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Old 05-12-10, 02:40 PM
  #85  
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my first attempt @ ZEs was 2 weeks ago. i knocked out 5 intervals at 103% exactly. i did this on the trainer. it was hard. it hurt a bit. that little one minute rest between really zooms by. i may go for the full 6 tonight since this thread has got me all jacked about them. later.
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Old 05-12-10, 02:44 PM
  #86  
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Go for 6, and shoot for 108%.
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Old 05-12-10, 02:44 PM
  #87  
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^^^^ challange or you just tyring to kill me?

either way, im game.

later.
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Old 05-12-10, 02:57 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
Nice, thanks. I just ordered one.

For the 6x5's - most people will have to work into them. There are three ways to do that: 1) less intensity (101-103% FTP), 2) fewer intervals (start with 5), or 3) longer rest interval (1:15-1:30).

#1 is a bad idea, you need to know what the intensity feels like. #2 is a bit better, but again I feel that you need to know what doing 6 feels like. #3 is best, though you will not be getting quite the same benefit, it is probably the best way to ease into the protocol. The intervals will be at the right intensity, and you'll do the correct number of them. Try to get the rest interval down to 60s by the 2nd or 3rd time out, though.
I did a combo. But I also started doing them 10 weeks before my peak, so I had time to "limp" into them a bit. I was also coming of a 5x4' VO2max protocol, so I was pretty familiar with that intensity/duration. A smooth transition, ATC.
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Old 05-12-10, 02:59 PM
  #89  
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Has anyone done a study with e-wang charts to correlate 6x5x1 vs 2x20 as an FTP push? In particular I'm thinking about the shape of the e-wang profile. I'm one of those "5 minute power is my peak" guys and the 6x5x1 protocol is doing wonders for what I'm already good at, but my personal experience is that 2x20's slightly over FTP and 2 hour hard tempo rides a bit below FTP are more efficient for me in FTP improvement. Those work my "off peak" systems in a positive way. I would think that folks with the inverse of my profile might get a greater benefit from the 6x5x1 protocol, though. This sounds like a really good thesis project for somebody.

I'm also thinking that maybe I stop doing these because it goes against the training rule of "Train your weaknesses and race your strengths." Training your personal strengths does make you feel great, though.
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Old 05-13-10, 07:46 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
Go for 6, and shoot for 108%.
i got the sixth one, but couldnt get all of them much above 103%. however, i did finish that last one pretty solid.

current estimated FTP is 270. this effort was done on a KK trainer.

20 min warm up.

ZE1 = 282w
ZE2 = 281w
ZE3 = 280w
ZE4 = 279w
ZE5 = 281w
ZE6 = 288w

i didnt want to do number 6, but glad i did. thanks for that push BD. later.
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Old 05-13-10, 11:23 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
i tried my first a month back and realized that it's nearly impossible to do without a power meter
+2

Took a few tries to be able to do these all closely grouped, finally managed to negative split a set with the last one at 109% - was planning to bump up the goal wattage a bit but now I'm without a PM for a few weeks* so I'm back to 2x20's that I can do by PE. No way I could hit the 6x5x1 without the PM, on the last 2 sets I find I have pull the wattage up *every single time* I look down at the PM...

I really like the ZCI's because I've got about six places I can do 5 min. uninterrupted within a short ride from home, but to get 20 min. without traffic/lights/whatever, I have to go a lot further afield. Unfortunately, I don't have 3 hours to ride for every scheduled workout day.


*PT wheel is being rebuilt after I killed the rim in a crash two weeks ago.
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Old 05-13-10, 12:00 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by forrest_m View Post
I really like the ZCI's because I've got about six places I can do 5 min. uninterrupted within a short ride from home
Lucky you. That's approximately a 2 mile uninterrupted stretch right? I've been looking for something like that around here forever. Not even a nice flat loop...anywhere.
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Old 05-13-10, 12:10 PM
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I do them on the trainer. More controllable. More consistent.
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Old 05-13-10, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Doggus View Post
Lucky you. That's approximately a 2 mile uninterrupted stretch right? I've been looking for something like that around here forever. Not even a nice flat loop...anywhere.
That sucks. I don't know how you take all that stopping. I can ride for 100 miles without a stop sign practically right out my door.
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Old 05-13-10, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
That sucks. I don't know how you take all that stopping. I can ride for 100 miles without a stop sign practically right out my door.
How much is your spare bedroom?
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Old 05-13-10, 12:27 PM
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It has 14 bikes in it. You'd be fighting the cat for floor space.
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Old 05-13-10, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ZeCanon View Post
It has 14 bikes in it. You'd be fighting the cat for floor space.
probably still worth it.
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Old 05-13-10, 01:15 PM
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I managed 5 yesterday. Went out a little too hard, but it's deceiving going into the wind. Before I knew it, I was beat. Oh, the pitfalls of training by perceived exertion.
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Old 05-13-10, 03:40 PM
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Loving these. Revised FTP up 15w* based on last week and previous data and did 7 yesterday with a 5s ramp to 10s sprint after number 7 just to remind my body that, yes, after all this you usually have to sprint. And then nearly vomit and pass out.

Does anyone else experience HR numbers that are higher than typical 2x20 efforts? I was getting up to 92% of Max HR by the end of my last intervals.

*All of my power numbers are based on power curve formula based on speed from kurt kinetic website. It's ghetto, but it's the same ghetto for every workout.
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Old 05-13-10, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gtmandsager View Post
Loving these. Revised FTP up 15w* based on last week and previous data and did 7 yesterday with a 5s ramp to 10s sprint after number 7 just to remind my body that, yes, after all this you usually have to sprint. And then nearly vomit and pass out.

Does anyone else experience HR numbers that are higher than typical 2x20 efforts? I was getting up to 92% of Max HR by the end of my last intervals.

*All of my power numbers are based on power curve formula based on speed from kurt kinetic website. It's ghetto, but it's the same ghetto for every workout.
Well since these are generally done at a higher intensity than 2*20s, then that would be expected, no?
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