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Ramp test - error?

Old 05-18-10, 12:43 AM
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tallmantim
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Ramp test - error?

Hello

I did a ramp test on a Wattbike this morning with a coaching programme I have signed up for (12 week programme), starting at 100 watts and climbing by 15 watts per minute.

I got through 20 minutes (so at 400 watts) and was told to push for the last minute - so sitting down took it up to about 650 watts (for minute 20-21) then stopped.

I was close to exhaustion at this point, but is this a normal run for a ramp test? Should I rerun it with 25 watt gradients so that I reach exhaustion before the 20 minutes is up?

I will get a report back this week on it and the coach said that she had the right info from our group for E@ and E3 zones etc, just concerned that max heartrate may not be fully worked out.

Any opinions?

Thanks
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Old 05-18-10, 06:09 AM
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This is the ramp (MAP) test I've always used, and I go for the non-elite ramp rate (even back when I was MAPing at 500W).
http://www.cyclecoach.com/index.php?...=70&Itemid=112
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Old 05-18-10, 06:18 AM
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That's the MAP test I use, too. Though I only MAP at 375 watts
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Old 05-18-10, 06:48 AM
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15 watts per minute is way slow. And if you're able to spike your watts from where you were to over 600 and hold it for the last minute, you started your ramp low. (Assuming you were ~400 watts steady at the 20 min mark)

I last MAP'd in the upper 400's, but was starting the ramp @ 225 and doing 25 watt/min. I'm pretty sure RST has all of their people use the 25/min protocol.

Then again, I haven't tested in over a year?
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Old 05-18-10, 09:30 AM
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Hi

I'm the Wattbike Sports Scientist based in the UK.

I agree, the 100 W 15 W ramp is known as the Storer test and is designed for non cyclists/semi cyclists and those new to exercise.

Ramp tests should normally last only 8-12 minutes so on this one 205 W to 265 W. You certainly wouldn't take it to 20 minutes and then push hard for last minute - tells you very little (other than you did the wrong test) and not very useful for establising Zones.

You sound a reasonably good cyclist, a number of different ramps you could use - if using a British Cycling ramp test would depend on your weight and ability etc but starting point probably needs to be 180 to 220 Watts and ramp by 20 W so max at 320-400 or 400 W to 440 W. Alternatively you could use the Australian protocol which starts at 175 W and ramps by 25 Ws so maxing 350W to 450W.

This would give you a maximum minute power (highest power in the final minute) and max heart rate upon which to base training zones.

Regards

Eddie Fletcher
eddief@wattbike.com
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Old 05-18-10, 06:23 PM
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Thanks for the reponses guys - and thanks for your professional view Eddie.

One of the guys wasn't there so will be doing a ramp test next week so I might ask if I can do it again.

Will keep you posted.

Tim
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Old 05-24-10, 05:56 PM
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OK - redid the test this morning using the Australian protocol.

Got through 13 minutes - so that sounds perfect for gathering data right?

So was doing 475 watts for the last minute - does that mean that that is my FTP? Or is it 450? Sorry, not too savvy on the power terms etc.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 05-24-10, 07:43 PM
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FTP is about 75% of MAP.

MAP is your best 1' (not guesstimated, but actual best).

So if your peak 1' was 475, then your FTP would be around 356.
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Old 05-24-10, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
FTP is about 75% of MAP.

MAP is your best 1' (not guesstimated, but actual best).

So if your peak 1' was 475, then your FTP would be around 356.
Thanks for that - works out about right as that is approximately the average power calculated for my PB on a ~20 minute climb.
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Old 05-25-10, 07:11 AM
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Keep in mind that MAP may skew you one direction or the other based on your AWC (or lack thereof).

For instance, my FTP tended to be closer to the 77-78% of MAP, while I've seen folks with closer to 72-73%. If your 20 min MMP on a steady climb is about the same as your 75% mark, FTP may be a little lower.

Ultimately, unless you're using your FTP for a no kidding pacing guide, calling FTP +/- 10 watts means nothing.

In fact, FTP is a meaningless number other than the basis for which your TSS score is calculated - especially if you're using MAP to calculate your training zones.

A typical FTP may float +/- 15 watts throughout the season, but if you're racing/training hard enough you'll have a pretty good idea what you can/can't do.
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Old 05-25-10, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by NomadVW View Post
Keep in mind that MAP may skew you one direction or the other based on your AWC (or lack thereof).

For instance, my FTP tended to be closer to the 77-78% of MAP, while I've seen folks with closer to 72-73%.
Yep, I'm at the 72% end of that equation. It didn't matter though, as I saw my MAP go up 20%, I knew threshold was going up 20%.
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Old 05-25-10, 05:46 PM
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Cheers guysThe only point of the zones right now is being able to train with a HRM - I don't have a power meter, but will have weekly sessions on the Wattbike for the next 10 weeks. I hope to see an improvement in numbers over that time.

For anyone interested, here is a glossary of terms: http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling...ry-making.html

At present, looking at improving my ability to get up to speed quickly - following getting dropped from the front group in a tight hotdog crit on the weekend. I can get up to a good speed and hold it, but the constant accelerations from 0-45+ km/h saw me getting dropped.

I guess improving my power to weight ratio alone should assist there - still got a few more kg I can comfortably lose - coupled with a moderate increase in power should hopefully see my power/weight go up 10+%.Cheers
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Old 05-31-10, 06:16 PM
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Had another session this morning - working in our E2 zones (had to keep my heart rate at 155).

4 x 7 minute sessions of this with a 5 minute spin down.

I kept it right on 312 watts average for my 4 sessions with a cadence of 87-92, making sure I modulated the effort to keep my HR down, and using the graph to make sure I was using an efficient pedal stroke - with this sort of session, you can really see the difference the smooth pedal stroke makes as the watts would go from like 270 odd to 330 depending upon how circular I was managing to keep it going.

Also tried some sprints (unstructured) at the end of the session to see if I could max out my top sprint and got a max of 1464 - so an improvement over last time (1311). I am going to ask if I can get a ~10 second sprint programme (with cooldown) to work out what sort of gear/cadence I can hit top 5 or 10 second power in.
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Old 05-31-10, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
FTP is about 75% of MAP.

MAP is your best 1' (not guesstimated, but actual best).

So if your peak 1' was 475, then your FTP would be around 356.
Oh Christ.....I'm not even close right now. I hit a 1' of 500 last crit training and I'm lucky to hold 300w threshold right now. Maybe that just means I'm not motivated enough. lol
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Old 06-01-10, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cslone View Post
Oh Christ.....I'm not even close right now. I hit a 1' of 500 last crit training and I'm lucky to hold 300w threshold right now. Maybe that just means I'm not motivated enough. lol
Not just peak 1 min, but peak 1 min at the end of a MAP graduated test. I can assure you that if your peak 1 min is 500 watts at the end of a graduated MAP test, your threshold is over 300 watts.
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Old 06-01-10, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by NomadVW View Post
Not just peak 1 min, but peak 1 min at the end of a MAP graduated test. I can assure you that if your peak 1 min is 500 watts at the end of a graduated MAP test, your threshold is over 300 watts.
yes, thanks for this clarification.
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Old 06-01-10, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
yes, thanks for this clarification.
Your statement seemed self evident from the subject of the thread, but apparently not
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Old 06-01-10, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NomadVW View Post
Not just peak 1 min, but peak 1 min at the end of a MAP graduated test. I can assure you that if your peak 1 min is 500 watts at the end of a graduated MAP test, your threshold is over 300 watts.
So threshold is the power you should be able to maintain for an extended period?

So in my case, with a MAP result of 475, that means I should be able to hold 356 for a long time?

My work in my E2 zone (155bpm and below) was sitting at 312 watts, which would mean I would need to go into E3 to hold 356. On fast group rides I can hold E3 heart rates for some time, but don't have a power meter for specific data.

I would like to work backwards from heart rate for racing to make sure I can keep going in a break etc if I am TTing off the front. So - looking to improve my numbers and use it as a tool for making sure I don't blow up.

Thanks very much for all the very knowledgable responses.
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