"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Training on deep wheels

Old 06-22-10, 08:58 AM
  #1  
pretzelface
Cat 4 roadkill
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Training on deep wheels

I'm thinking about scoring some deep wheels, but I can't decide between tubulars and clinchers. How often do you need to train on them to learn to handle them in a crosswind? I'm about 145-150 lbs. I'd prefer tubies for the ride quality, cornering, and general sexiness, but I don't want to get thrown through the pack like a rag doll the first time I hit a crosswind.
pretzelface is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 09:23 AM
  #2  
graphs
Senior Member
 
graphs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I guess that depends on you, some people are slow learners. Also, tubular or clincher isn't going to affect whether or not you can handle them in wind.
graphs is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 09:26 AM
  #3  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by graphs View Post
I guess that depends on you, some people are slow learners. Also, tubular or clincher isn't going to affect whether or not you can handle them in wind.
True but some people don't like to run tubulars for training...

I went with tubulars, I train on them ocassionally but not very often.
umd is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 10:23 AM
  #4  
border reiver
Senior Member
 
border reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If by deep dish you mean 40mm or less, then you shouldn't notice much appreciable cross wind difference. Deeper than that then I'd definitely train with them in windy and windy group ride conditions to get used to them. I am about the same weight as you and have Reynolds Strikes (66mm) which require a little more attentiveness than normal in cross winds (particularly the front end), but you'll soon get used to it.
border reiver is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 10:26 AM
  #5  
border reiver
Senior Member
 
border reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I should have added that you will also want to train on them to get used to the different feel of the brakes (assuming you're going with carbon rims), even more so if you have a chance of racing in the wet.
border reiver is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 10:37 AM
  #6  
umd
Banned
 
umd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by border reiver View Post
If by deep dish you mean 40mm or less, then you shouldn't notice much appreciable cross wind difference. Deeper than that then I'd definitely train with them in windy and windy group ride conditions to get used to them. I am about the same weight as you and have Reynolds Strikes (66mm) which require a little more attentiveness than normal in cross winds (particularly the front end), but you'll soon get used to it.
:facepalm:
umd is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 10:50 AM
  #7  
Dunce
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by umd View Post
:facepalm:
I'll take mine with spinach and fresh garlic.
 
Old 06-22-10, 11:04 AM
  #8  
Grumpy McTrumpy
gmt
 
Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 12,509
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5713491
Grumpy McTrumpy is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 11:13 AM
  #9  
pretzelface
Cat 4 roadkill
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by umd View Post
True but some people don't like to run tubulars for training...

I went with tubulars, I train on them ocassionally but not very often.
This is the issue - I tried training on tubulars when I had a set of box-section aluminum ones, just to try them out, and while I loved them, it got too expensive.

Originally Posted by border reiver View Post
If by deep dish you mean 40mm or less, then you shouldn't notice much appreciable cross wind difference. Deeper than that then I'd definitely train with them in windy and windy group ride conditions to get used to them. I am about the same weight as you and have Reynolds Strikes (66mm) which require a little more attentiveness than normal in cross winds (particularly the front end), but you'll soon get used to it.
I'm looking at some of the more inexpensive 50-58 mm options out there, like the Planet X, the Neuvations, or possibly Williams at the higher end. A 66 mm rim sounds scary in a crosswind!

Originally Posted by border reiver View Post
I should have added that you will also want to train on them to get used to the different feel of the brakes (assuming you're going with carbon rims), even more so if you have a chance of racing in the wet.
I rarely get to race in the rain, but I do it every chance I get. I train in the rain a lot, too, but that won't be an issue if I buy tubulars and use them as race-only-ish wheels.
pretzelface is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 11:18 AM
  #10  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,087

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Buy a clincher front wheel. That's the end that affects your handling. Train on clincher, race on tubular.

I commend you for thinking about the handling aspect before entering a race with aero/tall-rim wheels.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 11:29 AM
  #11  
pretzelface
Cat 4 roadkill
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Buy a clincher front wheel. That's the end that affects your handling. Train on clincher, race on tubular.

I commend you for thinking about the handling aspect before entering a race with aero/tall-rim wheels.

cdr
That would be a great idea, but cost is still a factor - which is why I'm focusing on the bargain brands. Wish someone made a 50+ mm aluminum clincher; that'd be rad for training on. I think the deepest one on the market is the H Plus Son at 43.3 mm (and 790 g).
pretzelface is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 12:46 PM
  #12  
El Diablo Rojo
Banned.
 
El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ATX, Ex So Cal
Posts: 11,058

Bikes: Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I always train on deep wheels..when I'm on a long ride and alone it's nice to have a deep wheel I can ask deep questions..like whats the meaning of life..stuff like that.

I train on a set of old Reynolds Stratus clinchers...they suck in the wind and are excellent practice for racing with a deeper front wheel in windy conditions.
El Diablo Rojo is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 01:51 PM
  #13  
aicabsolut
Senior Member
 
aicabsolut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,505

Bikes: 2006 Specialized Roubaix Comp

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pretzelface View Post
That would be a great idea, but cost is still a factor - which is why I'm focusing on the bargain brands. Wish someone made a 50+ mm aluminum clincher; that'd be rad for training on. I think the deepest one on the market is the H Plus Son at 43.3 mm (and 790 g).
Mavic Cosmic Carbone

I picked Mavics for my deep wheels with the idea that they'd be good to train with sometimes. I also like their MP3 plan.

>50mm
aicabsolut is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 02:33 PM
  #14  
echappist
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 9,062
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by aicabsolut View Post
Mavic Cosmic Carbone

I picked Mavics for my deep wheels with the idea that they'd be good to train with sometimes. I also like their MP3 plan.

>50mm
out of curiosity, have you had to file claims with Mavic? i've heard that their MP3 plan is a rip-off. would like to hear a story to the contrary
echappist is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 02:44 PM
  #15  
Ston_ar
Senior Member
 
Ston_ar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Davis, California
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I train on my Williams 58's on my TT bike, good for practice handling in cross winds. Except the one day with 30 MPH constant wind that was determined to push me into traffic.
Ston_ar is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 05:36 PM
  #16  
pinky
Ink-Stained Wretch
 
pinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Holyoke, MA
Posts: 1,731
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Don't discount the newer torridal 60+mm rim shapes, I ride Bonty Aeolus 65s and find them much easier to deal with in crosswinds than the Carbones they replaced.
pinky is offline  
Old 06-22-10, 05:47 PM
  #17  
aicabsolut
Senior Member
 
aicabsolut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,505

Bikes: 2006 Specialized Roubaix Comp

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mcjimbosandwich View Post
out of curiosity, have you had to file claims with Mavic? i've heard that their MP3 plan is a rip-off. would like to hear a story to the contrary
I sent my front wheel in after my crash because it had some scuffs at the top and a dent near the weld. They said there was nothing functionally wrong with it, serviced the whole thing (I have the carbon spoke ones) and sent it back. I still have 5 or 6 months left on the plan.

A friend of mine has gotten a new wheel out of it, and the LBS says that the Mavic plan is legit. The biggest downside is that it only lasts 2 years. Some say to just take the wheel to the curb at 23 months

The best part about it is that it's not limited to 1 replacement wheel. If you have the awful luck of destroying your wheels multiple times in 2 years, you still don't pay any extra for subsequent replacements. Mavic makes money off of all the people who don't need any replacements during their warranty period. And they will reuse any salvageable parts (e.g., the hub).

Anyway, I didn't think twice about doing 2 races having substantial gravel sections with the Mavics because of the plan. They are stiffer than my shallow training wheels anyway.
aicabsolut is offline  
Old 06-23-10, 01:44 AM
  #18  
Basil Moss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,051

Bikes: Specialized Allez (2007)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Buy a clincher front wheel. That's the end that affects your handling.
But... why? Clinchers are so lumpy in terms of handling compared to tubs, why would you put one on the front?
Basil Moss is offline  
Old 06-23-10, 01:51 AM
  #19  
chado445510
Raising the bar
 
chado445510's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
Posts: 1,106

Bikes: 2007 Specialized Allez Double (sold), 2009 Kestrel RT 800

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Grumpy McTrumpy View Post
chado445510 is offline  
Old 06-23-10, 05:40 AM
  #20  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,087

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Basil Moss View Post
But... why? Clinchers are so lumpy in terms of handling compared to tubs, why would you put one on the front?
The profile is more important, not the clincher/tubular difference. The biggest problem with aero vs non-aero is that you steer an aero wheel a lot more (say 25 mm profile vs 60 mm profile). With a normal non-aero wheel you lean to adjust trajectory. If you just lean with an aero front wheel you end up going "straighter" than if you steer a touch - I use a combination of both to corner, and I "steer" as much as I lean for minor trajectory adjustments. It takes maybe 5-10 minutes for me to acclimate to one or the other, but if that's during a race or a group ride, that's 5 or 10 minutes where I'm not being a good bike handler. (A more extreme example is tandem/single bike transitions - it takes me a good 15-20 minutes to stop riding like a drunk when I get back on a single - I usually go on a solo ride for 30-60 minutes before I'll do a group ride if I'm coming off the tandem).

My ideal way of approaching wheels, buying them, for best aero return for the buck:
Step 1. Buy clincher and tubular front wheel with similar profiles (TriSpoke/HED3 was my first like this - later Spinergy Rev-X, Reynolds, now HEDs). Clincher for training, tubular for racing. HEDs have an additional variable, but the TriSpoke/HED3 and Reynolds handled similarly in wind front and rear.
Advantages:
1. Similar profile rims handle similarly in wind.
2. Front wheels are universal (no cassettes, no weird spacing). Okay, except for disc brakes and rim width.
3. Front wheels are cheaper
4. Front wheels are stronger, usually last longer, etc
5. Front wheels affect aerodynamics the most (2/3 of aero effect of wheelsets comes from front wheel)
6. Front wheels affect handling the most

Step 2. Buy matching rear tubular wheel for races (so now you have 3 wheels)
Advantages:
1. Lighter rotating weight
2. Looks cool
3. Stabilizes rear of bike (rear aero wheels do that)

Step 3. If budget allows, buy matching rear clincher for training and spares for racing (now you have 4 wheels).
Advantages:
1. Two pairs of wheels that handle similarly
2. You can work on speed a bit more in training (i.e. using aero wheels to your advantage)
3. Typically clincher aero wheels are heavier so they require more work to get up to speed - you can work on your jump

Keep a box section front wheel for really windy days. Most riders start with a box section so just keep that wheel.

Exception to the clincher/tubular handling thing: HED clincher and tubular have wide rims for different reasons. The clinchers are wide to get the wheel/tire to be more durable - lower pressures, wider rim, better comfort. I run about 10-20 psi less than normal on my HED clinchers (95/105 psi, vs 115/120 psi). They corner a bit differently.

HED tubular rims are wider ONLY FOR AERODYNAMICS, not for anything else. You need to use the same air pressure as on normal rims. I run 120-140 psi, depending on my mood. At 105/110 I thought my tires were sliding everywhere; at normal pressures I'm fine. That's my preference; yours may be different.

cdr
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 06-23-10, 03:46 PM
  #21  
pearcem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have been training with my new race wheels for about 3 weeks now. I bought them for TTs and tris, and since I am doing a tri this weekend, I have been riding about 3 times a week. They are Jack Kane 85mm tubulars. They are my first tubulars, and I love them, but if I get into more mileage, then I am gonna throw my training clinchers on more frequently. I got some Continental Sprinters on there, and I opted to spend the extra $5-10 a tire for the more durable, thicker material.

I am riding these wheels on a road bike, at the beach. I did a 30 mile ride the other day with an almost continuous 90 degree crosswing ranging from 10-15 miles and hour with ver intense gusts. It was a solo ride, and the steady state winds were not too bad. It took a little getting used to at first, but now, the only thing that really bothers me is the very intense gusts. I had one scare when I came between two houses and got a huge gust from the ocean.

I have only been doing solo riding, but I wouldn't group ride with them unless it was very calm. I wouldn't object to a road race or group ride if the conditions were right, but I don't think I would ever use them in a crit, no matter how good the conditions were. Just not worth it. Btw, I weigh 180.
pearcem is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 12:29 PM
  #22  
veloboy971
Must Go Faster
 
veloboy971's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stopped at the bakery
Posts: 972

Bikes: Trek Madone 5.9, BMC Road Racer SL01, Orbea Aletta TT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by pearcem View Post
I wouldn't object to a road race or group ride if the conditions were right, but I don't think I would ever use them in a crit, no matter how good the conditions were. Just not worth it. Btw, I weigh 180.

You do realize that aerodynamics are extremely important in crit racing (hence why a lot of people wear skin suits).

I think a lot of people tend to think crits are more dangerous than they actually are. There was a big road race earlier in the season here in FL, where 3 local pros went down in a huge crash. In some cases road races are more dangerous because people tend to zone out and not pay attention.
veloboy971 is offline  
Old 06-27-10, 01:19 PM
  #23  
mollusk
Elite Fred
 
mollusk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edge City
Posts: 10,893

Bikes: 2009 Spooky (cracked frame), 2006 Curtlo, 2002 Lemond (current race bike) Zurich, 1987 Serotta Colorado, 1986 Cannondale for commuting, a 1984 Cannondale on loan to my son

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by veloboy971 View Post
I think a lot of people tend to think crits are more dangerous than they actually are. There was a big road race earlier in the season here in FL, where 3 local pros went down in a huge crash. In some cases road races are more dangerous because people tend to zone out and not pay attention.
Our amateur road races are not on closed courses, so the fact that we might have to deal with cars make them MUCH more dangerous than crits in terms of serious injury/lethal accidents.

Please don't tell my wife this. I love road racing and crits not so much.
mollusk is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.