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Question about rotating pacelines in changing wind

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Question about rotating pacelines in changing wind

Old 07-16-10, 01:26 AM
  #1  
davids0507
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Question about rotating pacelines in changing wind

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum... And it's probably a dumb question but it's been bothering me.

This probably won't come up too often, but the local hammer ride goes around a loop a mile or two long (no traffic, two lanes open in our direction) with two 90-degree turns (the other 180 degrees are extremely gradual). The turns are so gradual and the loop is so big that rotating pacelines are easy to form. It's often windy. So we've been practicing rotating pacelines, and there always seems to be a hitch when we go around the corner and the wind blows from the opposite direction (from the left versus from the right).

Obviously we're supposed to start rotating in the opposite direction, but how exactly should this happen? If the double rotating paceline has a fast lane and a slow lane,
1. Should the slow lane now become the fast lane (and the poor guy who just pulled off to the left now has to do twice the work and pull off to the right)?
Or
2. Should the fast lane stay the fast lane and a new slow lane form to the other side of it (as guys just start pulling off to the other side instead)?

The more experienced guys seem to think it's #1 (although when the "experienced" guy shows up with goddamn headphones you tend not to trust his opinion), but if that one guy in front was just barely hanging on, he sometimes really struggles to take that second pull as we reverse directions, because he's been exposed to the wind for a long time. So I think #2 would be better, because it gives the guy who just rotated a chance to recover (and making his problems worse is the guy in the fast lane who was just sheltered and doesn't think to slow down). This normally wouldn't be a big deal, but if it happens twice a lap it gets annoying.

Make sense? Thoughts?
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Old 07-16-10, 06:56 AM
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1. 100%.

if you're rotating counterclockwise (to the left), hit the front and notice that you would need to rotate clockwise (to the right) to be correctly rotating into the wind, just make a clockwise circle motion with your right hand so that the next in line can see, or state "we need to rotate to the right" as youre making the circle and proceed.

honestly though, since you're doing multiple laps and the phenomenon happens 2x/lap, your group should be able to figure this out and have the rotation change take place automatically.
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Old 07-16-10, 07:28 AM
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I respect MD's opinion in most threads, but maybe he just didn't understand the wording (it is sometimes hard to describe). He describes the correct method, but the wrong option #.

#2 is the correct option. The next guy in line, who has been recovering & sheltered, instead of pulling off to the left as the previous, tired rider did, now pulls off to the right, into the wind. You don't have anybody do a "double pull".
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Old 07-16-10, 07:43 AM
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if he pulls off to the right wouldnt that take him into the ditch? j/k.

bottom line, the rotation needs to reverse so when approaching those points the pull of the rider in front should be modified to anticipate the change, communicated when necessary, and everyone else fall in line smoothly.

pulling off into the wind does make a big difference. i remember being in a 6-man breakaway a couple years ago on a very windy day. we were thrashing ourselves on a wide open section of road, when the guy in front of me did the hand gesture to switch rotation direction, my gawd that break got alot easier. one of those funny little things one remembers, unfortunately i also remember us being swallowed up at 300m by the field that day and watching myself go backwards through it like **** through a goose.
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Old 07-16-10, 08:30 AM
  #5  
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Non race situation, open roads, large group, just pull off left, and don't worry about the wind direction. Not perfectly efficient, but safer in traffic, and about the best you can hope to organize.

I've never been on a local hammer ride that could pull off a double paceline alternating the rotation twice every mile.

With a mixture of guys from different teams, unattached riders, and abilities and experience levels from Cat 1 through 5, and some fast fitness riders, but non racers, I just don't see this working well. I'm thinking clusterf*ck.
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Old 07-16-10, 08:40 AM
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I would always rotate to the outside of the corner no matter which way it is turning or which way the wind is blowing. The paceline should always take the inside.
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Old 07-16-10, 08:59 AM
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doesnt the short distance negate the need for a double paceline?

a flat two mile loop would take far less than 5 minutes on a "hammerhead" ride. So how many people are involved in this double paceline and how long are the pulls? sounds like a cluster to me....

I would think riding it as a pack and letting folks hide when they need to and pull when they feel strong would be a lot more fun and just as effective.
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Old 07-16-10, 09:41 AM
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OP isnt talking about a double paceline, the topic is a rotating paceline.
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Old 07-16-10, 09:47 AM
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oh boy.
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Old 07-16-10, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
OP isnt talking about a double paceline, the topic is a rotating paceline.
Ah, the talk of "lanes" threw me off.

I still say trying to keep a line rotating through such a short course is more trouble than its worth.
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Old 07-16-10, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by aggro_jo View Post
Ah, the talk of "lanes" threw me off.

I still say trying to keep a line rotating through such a short course is more trouble than its worth.
apparently you've never been in a breakaway.
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Old 07-16-10, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by botto View Post
apparently you've never been in a breakaway.
not in a crit.

yet.
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Old 07-16-10, 11:08 AM
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Might as well start yelling at him now.
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Old 07-16-10, 11:12 AM
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Making some schlub take a double pull negates the whole purpose of the paceline. Duh.
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Old 07-16-10, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
OP isnt talking about a double paceline, the topic is a rotating paceline.
Oops...quite right. I skipped right over that detail. Good catch.
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Old 07-16-10, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Making some schlub take a double pull negates the whole purpose of the paceline. Duh.
Unless you want him/her to suffer and drop out..
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Old 07-16-10, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Making some schlub take a double pull negates the whole purpose of the paceline. Duh.
Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Unless you want him/her to suffer and drop out..
are you guys sure you understand how a rotating paceline works? pulls are only long enough to get through from one side to the other, if you reverse it, it isnt a big deal because you're only hitting the front for a second or 2 if you're riding properly.
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Old 07-16-10, 12:53 PM
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considering the crit-like nature of the setting, I'd go with shovelhd's answer, slow line on the outside.
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Old 07-16-10, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
are you guys sure you understand how a rotating paceline works? pulls are only long enough to get through from one side to the other, if you reverse it, it isnt a big deal because you're only hitting the front for a second or 2 if you're riding properly.
Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread, I was just responding to caloso's comment out of context. This thread is too 41-ish for me to really pay attention to.
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Old 07-16-10, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
are you guys sure you understand how a rotating paceline works? pulls are only long enough to get through from one side to the other, if you reverse it, it isnt a big deal because you're only hitting the front for a second or 2 if you're riding properly.
Funny to see a range of opinions. MDcatV, I understand your point, but if you're going fast it can hurt. The rotation just falls apart when one of the weaker guys is involved and we're trying to switch directions.

It's not the local hammer ride, it's more laid back than that. Usually a group of 10-16 guys, range of abilities and experience, nobody hammering too hard until the very end. The point is more to practice riding in groups and pacelines (some days to respond to attacks) -- so exactly how to rotate when there's a crosswind *is* actually the purpose of the ride. Pace starts slow and slowly increases as the ride goes on, so eventually it gets hard for most people and you're hurting when you're in the wind trying to get around. We're there for 30-60 minutes, so there's usually enough time for everyone to learn when and how to reverse the rotation, but I still think #2 would be easier to execute and easier for the guy in front.
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Old 07-16-10, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
might as well start yelling at him now.
ftw
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Old 07-17-10, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
Might as well start yelling at him now.
That thread could use a TdF is on now bump.
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Old 07-18-10, 06:26 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
That thread could use a TdF is on now bump.
Ha! I was right, I JUST saw a guy on the TdF rotate his finger in the opposite direction and pull off on the other side (the fast lane stayed the fast lane). Looks to be an exciting day today...
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Old 07-18-10, 07:43 AM
  #24  
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Sounds like a great opportunity to attack in the gutter.
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