MDcatV

a cat 4 in 2009 who is a cat 1 in 2010 is an outlier regardless of what the watt meter says.

op - sorry, your thread has been hijacked completely and i'm partially to blame. a sincere answer is dont worry about it. there are ftps all over the chart, i would suspect that the variance is greater in Cat 4 than in the upper categories. the trick is to learn how to use yours, whatever it is, to race your best. get a good idea of the shape of your power profile, work hard to improve all areas of it focusing on the appropriate points at the appropriate time of the training season, race as much as your time and personal constraints allow, and you'll improve.

umd

True. Unfortunately, I always ended up racing against a bunch of them

Voodoo76

Back to the OP's question. Why do you really want to know? Are you going to not race unless you can generate a certain number? What if you can't get there? Seems like you want to know the answer to the test before you take it.

mattm

To the OP: nailing down an FTP # is easy; the hard part is quantifying "race smarts".

There guys who are still 4's that are stronger than me, for sure; maybe they can TT better, maybe they can sprint better, etc - but I had the smarts of when to rest vs. when to work, etc. And they're still busy being "strong 4's".

I got to the 3's mostly on racing smarts, the way I see it, not hammering anyone over the head with my legs.

And fwiw my FTP is about 4.2 w/kg. Sprint is about 17 w/kg on a great day.

kensuf

We have a few races with ~400+ feet of climbing per lap too.

Seriously.

Sugarloaf RR, 3/20/2010, 5 laps, 53.2 miles, 3707' climbing

kensuf

heh. Looks like I hooked one..

Grumpy McTrumpy

this is a hard sport. I am convinced that even cat 4 is far more competitive than it was a few years ago now that everyone is using supplements, powermeters, coaches, training programs etc. (in some ways this is taking the fun out of it)

my ftp is solidly 4 w/kg for an hour, possibly more if I use the 20'*.95 method. My 5 minute power is solidly in the next higher range on the E-wang than that.

I have exactly ONE upgrade point in the past 12 months.

even in hilltop finishes the numbers lie. I have been out of the top ten in C4 races with far more power than would be considered normal for C4. The only conclusion to draw from this is that all racing is getting more difficult and the power numbers cannot be looked at as absolutes. You still have to compete against people.

Someone with my set of strengths and weaknesses (no top end, good long distance climber due to low weight but low actual power numbers) is going to have a hard time upgrading when most races favor sprinters or those who have good anaerobic power.

So there is no real answer to your question. if you want to go off the front in a C4 crit it's not a matter of watts/kg but pure watts (and position). you could be 225 pounds and just sail away from the pack in a flat crit, and also get killed on a moderately hilly course.

Am I going to be able to do the same with my 250w? it might represent 4.16w/kg but seriously... do you think I can hold off even a C4 crit field with that kind of power? I don't think so.

Same question... if it's a mountain finish and you have 360w but weigh 225 do you think you can beat me? doubtful.

however, in my experience, in C4 you need to have more than 4 w/kg in real world hill finishes. honestly. how many one hour mountaintop finishes are going to just happen to be placed at the end of a 50 mile cat 4 road race? none.

no. it's far more likely that the hill you climb will take between 5 and 10 minutes to finish. maybe 20 max. so let's face it. guys are going flat out VO2max and higher. and the outliers will win. every time. and if they choose to stay in C4, then you will see them year after year after year. not to mention the "new outliers"

sorry about being grouchy but this has been my experience.

if you have a sprint, you will get out of the 4s far more easily.

Grumpy McTrumpy

you may think this is average, but even if it's only 15.5w/kg that is still the mark of an outlier in cat 4.

this is my point. you may think you won because of smarts (and you probably did), but you were able to bring a decent sized gun to the gunfight as well.

mattm

Unfortunately the number of upgrade points is not directly proportional to your wattage - are you trying to say you should have more points?

But how are you racing?

Sitting in the pack? Attacking from the gun?

The other factors not mentioned are:
-amount of risk you're willing to take
-number of races
-race smarts

I think all of those are also crucial to upgrading and/or winning. I won a bike race once, and I'm hardly an outlier.

Grumpy McTrumpy

oh please. try to read what I said as what it is, not some kind of silly plea for help. I am trying to stay on topic here.

kensuf

I think a lot of people have more time to train too.. I know several guys (many in their 30s and 40s) that are either now unemployed (and living off savings/working spouse), or just working minimal hours, that are putting in 20-30 hours a week and killing it in the 1/2/3 fields.

A friend of mine that raced as a 2 until he quit in '08 wanted to get back into it for the fall season this year. He started peppering me with questions like "which teams do I need to try and get on that will give me a bike, pay my hotel, and comp all my fees" and I just laughed.

mattm

I should also clarify that I've probably never gotten much over 14-15 w/kg at the end of a race, believe me I'm not really a sprinter.

Everyone in the pack knows who the outliers are, and I was never one of them in the 4's. Never got very far away from the field, even when I tried.. the win came from being at the right place (the front) at the right time (the end of the race) on the right wheel (my team mate's). And of course with the right amount of energy left in the tank for a final kick.

I do agree that climbing in races takes an insane amount of wattage, even in the 4's, and the outliers really shine there; I remember doing a few-minute climb at about 5.5 w/kg earlier this year in a local RR, and barely hanging on. And getting dropped on a 5-mile climb on the first lap, though most of the field was also dropped. The two guys that dropped everyone are probably 3's now, and will be punishing me this year as well..

johnybutts

I think you're dead on about having a sprint helps, but my experience is a bit different. my best sprint ever is ~15 W/kg - 78 kg - middle of cat-4 chart. My highest range is 5-min power, which is on the bottom of cat-3 chart. I've found that in the last 5 minutes of a race, when attacks are going and everyone's getting crazy, that I arrive to the finish with much much more in the tank than anyone else, because my 5-min power is higher than theirs - thus my sprints are done with more freshness.

These are the kinds of things you have to realize and use to your advantage. You can't just say, "I don't have the absolute power I need to win this race"(and I dont mean this to be condescending). Always scheme; always find races that will suit you better, get in touch with teammates to make sure they're there, make friends on other teams so you have advantages the field doesn't, aero-ize your bike, aero-ize your position, make race plans, make backup plans, this stuff goes on and on and on. Perhaps I'm speaking to the choir, but this is how it worked for me. If all else fails, you can try the spray-and-pray method... Race as many races as you can, and hope you place in some of them just from the percentages.

Psimet2001 

Guys that I documented as 4.1-4.3 w/kg at the beginning of the season - 1 is now a cat 3 the other is still a cat 4 - race decisions have played more of a role with him. Neither of them has ever run away with any win, but they consistently place in the top 10 barring other issues.

I, however, am currently sitting right at 3 w/kg and I regularly get my ass handed to me with garnish and a side of fat. I like to wash that down with some regret, low self esteem, and body image issues.

....just sayin...

Psimet2001 

as for crit sprinting here in the flat home of the crit ....I hold my position with 13w/kg. I don't move up though. I can get danced around by guys here.

Just ran some numbers and realized that I have to lose 25 lbs and increase my ftp by 15% to even hold my own around here....*sigh*.....

Good news is that if I don't lose any strength while losing weight I can turn my sprint into something that helps me out greatly.

Grumpy McTrumpy

even in sprinting, overall power matters.

as soon as your delta-V goes to zero, it's pure power against the wind, so the bigger guys with the bigger overall sprint watts are going to do better after they reach the end of the acceleration phase. Think about it. 800 watts into the wind might be the same w/kg for me as 1200 for a big guy. Once we are done getting up to speed, who do you think is going to be able to go faster?

(provided that they have good staying power or whatever hunter allen called it...fatigue profiling or something... this is one thing I am fairly good at..so if you put me in a small breakaway of climbers, I will do better if I jump early for the line)

johnybutts

So perhaps organizing your team for a leadout would be the best strategy. It's always hard but completely do-able. or find the right wheel to follow, also work on sprint form, stay low and aero. I realize there are a limitations from power profile, but there are soooo many things you can do to push those limitations to their limits.

ProudDaddy

I am in my first year of racing and can confirm some things in this thread. Although I don't have a power meter and have no idea what ftp is (thinking of getting one this winter though), I am probably stronger than 80% of my old man cat 4 field (or so I think anyways) but my results prior to this weekend have basically stunk. I think I am finally learning where to position myself better. The best advice I could give to a new cat 4 is not to sit in the back quarter (at least in a crit). Way too much yo-yoing, sprinting to catch back up, and sprinting again to try to close gaps as slower guys get gapped from the leading group. This may not be so much an issue in cat 3 and higher races as there is less desparity and guys ride smoother but in cat 4 races I have found I burn way too many matches sitting towards the back. On top of that, the squirrely guys (the ones that don't know the concept of keeping their line) tend to ride in the middle to back and I just get nervous around them. So after figuring this part out, my goal now is to try to stay in the top 5-10. I did this successfully in this past Saturday's crit and finished 4th for my first upgrade points. I probably would have finished higher, but wasted some matches by sprinting for the last worthless prime and setting tempo at the very front on a couple occasions. The top 2 also jumped the field at the beginning of the last lap while someone in front of me blew a tire in a corner and we all got gapped, my teammate and I were boxed in and noone would chase. Finally on the back side I dropped the hammer with nearly half a lap to go and finished 4th and my teammate got 3rd. We barely missed catching the 2 breakaway guys.

Sunday was a RR and the same teammate and I took 1st and 2nd despite getting dropped on the last climb. We have hardly climbed this summer and nearly paid the price, but our weekly crit training and races paid off for the catch and sprint. He now gets upgraded to the 3s and I get some more points. I'd say our fitness, strengths, and weaknesses are nearly the same, but he has had more "race smarts" than me throughout the season.

Grumpy McTrumpy

I give up trying to stay on topic.

pjcampbell

right .. watts or even watts per KG don't mean anything necessarily. there are many times where the heavier more powerful person with less watts per KG will win.

grumpy - how about Green mountain for you? or tour of the hilltowns... pawling mountain would be a good one too.

mattm

But big guys don't always win...

shovelhd

Don't give up, Grumpy. I see your point. The whole issue of comparing one rider to another, and their results, by using power numbers is kind of silly. Psimet's example is worth noting, as it's an extreme example. But trying to compare two rider's results by tenths of a W/kg is an exercise in futility. Might as well compare average speed.

Your point about road race finishes is a good one. Up here they tend to be short, really fast power climbs that favor sprinters.

spinwax

This^^^

ZeCanon

There are probably a dozen races in the entire country that favor a pure climber. Requirement for that is a finish climb in the 20+ minute range. Less than that, and a good anaerobic engine still has a huge effect.

The question is flawed. Average FTP is going to vary greatly among highly successful Cat 4's depending on their given strengths. I'd wager you have quite a few 4's who are killing it with 3.0w/kg FTP's and 18w/kg sprints. Then you have the guys who win in breaks, who are killing it with 4.5w/kg FTP's, but with a 12.0w/kg sprint. Two opposite ends of the spectrum, both doing very well depending on course and skill.

The higher your sprint/anaerobic numbers, the lower your FTP can be, particularly given American race courses and our love of crits.

pjcampbell

311 for 1.5 hours @ 155 pounds is great power .