Suggestions for training without power
03-16-11, 11:44 AM
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Suggestions for training without power
So I just got out-bid on a powertap wheel on eBay and I'm kind of glad. I've been taking my training very seriously and while training with power is a very valuable asset, I know that it's not essential.
Does anyone have any tips for managing intensity without a power meter? WR suggested doing hill repeats and tracking the time it takes to do a point to point route, then attempting negative splits to tune RPE. Some of the workouts in the recipe book are so specific (ie 103-108% FTP) that I feel like the only way to know what that feels like is with a PM. Anaerobic intervals (not WRI's) are another thing that give me trouble, I go too hard and poop out before the 3min mark.
Tips?
Does anyone have any tips for managing intensity without a power meter? WR suggested doing hill repeats and tracking the time it takes to do a point to point route, then attempting negative splits to tune RPE. Some of the workouts in the recipe book are so specific (ie 103-108% FTP) that I feel like the only way to know what that feels like is with a PM. Anaerobic intervals (not WRI's) are another thing that give me trouble, I go too hard and poop out before the 3min mark.
Tips?
Last edited by HMF; 03-16-11 at 12:02 PM.
03-16-11, 11:50 AM
#2
fuggitivo solitario
if you have an HRM, then you can try to observe how it ramps up for the specific work outs. The actual values won't matter as much as the profile of the ramp.
The best place for ptaps are slowtwitch, serotta, and weight weenie classified forums for used, and Psimet for new.
The best place for ptaps are slowtwitch, serotta, and weight weenie classified forums for used, and Psimet for new.
03-16-11, 11:56 AM
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Agree with mcjimbo: You can get a lot done with an HRM and RPE. The longer the interval, the more I would pay attention to HR; the shorter, the more I'd pay attention to RPE.
03-16-11, 11:59 AM
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I do have an HRM and I know all my zones and everything, but is there a way to make it usuable for a z5a/5b interval that's 3 minutes long?
03-16-11, 12:08 PM
#5
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1) train by time; hours on the bike.
2) find a hill and a time trial route and use it repeatedly, making note of your times on these specific courses. That way you can record progress and do threshold work.
3) if you go too hard during anaerobic intervals, that's okay. Next time, remember how it felt and dial it back a notch. For me, it usually takes two or three interval sessions to determine the proper pacing, even when I had the help of a powermeter. Once you've got some experience, you pretty much know what you can do for various time intervals, just on feel. The powermeter is just a measurement tool. Everyone rides on feel whether they know it or not. The powermeter just correlates a number to the feeling.
4) those workout recipes which are trying to get you within a 5% zone are for number crunchers who need very specific targets because their powermeter display gives them 3 digit accuracy. The workout is still relevant regardless of the measuring device. If it asks for threshold, just dial it up until it feels like you feel on your time trial and hill climb routes at full pace. With only perceived effort to go on, you aren't going to be flatlined at a certain power level, but you will be close, and that's all that counts.
5) if you are on a trainer or rollers, you can correlate power to gearing and cadence. When I do a trainer workout, I know that a high 80's/low 90's cadence in the 53/17 gear on my trainer gets me to threshold. Obviously this is trainer specific. If I went and bought a new trainer, I'd have to recalibrate. Then you can match your progress to what gearing you are able to use, occasionally probing the boundaries to see if you've improved. You can actually get pretty accurate if you go and buy a rear wheel speedometer and record average speed for your interval sessions. Speed on a trainer is correlated to power, so you can watch your average speeds and use those to benchmark improvements.
2) find a hill and a time trial route and use it repeatedly, making note of your times on these specific courses. That way you can record progress and do threshold work.
3) if you go too hard during anaerobic intervals, that's okay. Next time, remember how it felt and dial it back a notch. For me, it usually takes two or three interval sessions to determine the proper pacing, even when I had the help of a powermeter. Once you've got some experience, you pretty much know what you can do for various time intervals, just on feel. The powermeter is just a measurement tool. Everyone rides on feel whether they know it or not. The powermeter just correlates a number to the feeling.
4) those workout recipes which are trying to get you within a 5% zone are for number crunchers who need very specific targets because their powermeter display gives them 3 digit accuracy. The workout is still relevant regardless of the measuring device. If it asks for threshold, just dial it up until it feels like you feel on your time trial and hill climb routes at full pace. With only perceived effort to go on, you aren't going to be flatlined at a certain power level, but you will be close, and that's all that counts.
5) if you are on a trainer or rollers, you can correlate power to gearing and cadence. When I do a trainer workout, I know that a high 80's/low 90's cadence in the 53/17 gear on my trainer gets me to threshold. Obviously this is trainer specific. If I went and bought a new trainer, I'd have to recalibrate. Then you can match your progress to what gearing you are able to use, occasionally probing the boundaries to see if you've improved. You can actually get pretty accurate if you go and buy a rear wheel speedometer and record average speed for your interval sessions. Speed on a trainer is correlated to power, so you can watch your average speeds and use those to benchmark improvements.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-16-11, 12:10 PM
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If you're like me, the HR takes a good 30-45 sec. to ramp up, so I think I'd go by RPE for the first minute (8?) and then adjust in minutes 2 and 3.
03-16-11, 12:12 PM
#7
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no. 3 minutes is too short for your heartrate to settle in. You'll be doing at least half the interval by feel, as your heartrate will level out right about the time you are finishing.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-16-11, 12:15 PM
#8
fuggitivo solitario
Can you see the recorded HRM data afterwards? I've found that my VO2 max intervals follows the same sort of ramping, except for the fact that the first one or two starts at a slightly lower HR.
03-16-11, 12:27 PM
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No it's just a one zone monitor. I'd like to see that data and be ready for a PT wheel one day, so I've been thinking of getting a Garmin bundle and selling this thing. Would I be able to download HR data from an Edge 500?
03-16-11, 12:30 PM
#11
fuggitivo solitario
yes. Garmin has their own thing, or you can import it into GC. With luck, you can even calculate TRIMP points and periodize your training based on HR when using GC.
03-16-11, 12:35 PM
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HR can be informative even if it's not stable. Unfortunately HRMs only report the current value and not the derivative, but if you have a good understanding of your zones you can do some math to get approximate intermediate targets.
The HR response half-life is about 30s so for at a given time your HR will be X% adjusted to the new load. This is of course assuming you can fairly evenly pace your efforts.
Say your starting HR was 110bpm and the HR that correlates to your 5a power is 185bpm then your intermediate targets would be:
The HR response half-life is about 30s so for at a given time your HR will be X% adjusted to the new load. This is of course assuming you can fairly evenly pace your efforts.
Code:
Time (s) % Adjusted 0 0% 30 50% 60 75% 90 88% 120 94% 150 97% 180 98%
Code:
Time HR 0 110 30 148 60 166 90 176 120 180 150 183 180 184
03-17-11, 11:22 AM
#13
Senior Member
Pace by feel and time the effort so you know if you are getting faster or slower. If your times are pretty consistent and you are wasted at the end, then you did it right.
03-17-11, 01:18 PM
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1) train by time; hours on the bike.
2) find a hill and a time trial route and use it repeatedly, making note of your times on these specific courses. That way you can record progress and do threshold work.
3) if you go too hard during anaerobic intervals, that's okay. Next time, remember how it felt and dial it back a notch. For me, it usually takes two or three interval sessions to determine the proper pacing, even when I had the help of a powermeter. Once you've got some experience, you pretty much know what you can do for various time intervals, just on feel. The powermeter is just a measurement tool. Everyone rides on feel whether they know it or not. The powermeter just correlates a number to the feeling.
4) those workout recipes which are trying to get you within a 5% zone are for number crunchers who need very specific targets because their powermeter display gives them 3 digit accuracy. The workout is still relevant regardless of the measuring device. If it asks for threshold, just dial it up until it feels like you feel on your time trial and hill climb routes at full pace. With only perceived effort to go on, you aren't going to be flatlined at a certain power level, but you will be close, and that's all that counts.
5) if you are on a trainer or rollers, you can correlate power to gearing and cadence. When I do a trainer workout, I know that a high 80's/low 90's cadence in the 53/17 gear on my trainer gets me to threshold. Obviously this is trainer specific. If I went and bought a new trainer, I'd have to recalibrate. Then you can match your progress to what gearing you are able to use, occasionally probing the boundaries to see if you've improved. You can actually get pretty accurate if you go and buy a rear wheel speedometer and record average speed for your interval sessions. Speed on a trainer is correlated to power, so you can watch your average speeds and use those to benchmark improvements.
2) find a hill and a time trial route and use it repeatedly, making note of your times on these specific courses. That way you can record progress and do threshold work.
3) if you go too hard during anaerobic intervals, that's okay. Next time, remember how it felt and dial it back a notch. For me, it usually takes two or three interval sessions to determine the proper pacing, even when I had the help of a powermeter. Once you've got some experience, you pretty much know what you can do for various time intervals, just on feel. The powermeter is just a measurement tool. Everyone rides on feel whether they know it or not. The powermeter just correlates a number to the feeling.
4) those workout recipes which are trying to get you within a 5% zone are for number crunchers who need very specific targets because their powermeter display gives them 3 digit accuracy. The workout is still relevant regardless of the measuring device. If it asks for threshold, just dial it up until it feels like you feel on your time trial and hill climb routes at full pace. With only perceived effort to go on, you aren't going to be flatlined at a certain power level, but you will be close, and that's all that counts.
5) if you are on a trainer or rollers, you can correlate power to gearing and cadence. When I do a trainer workout, I know that a high 80's/low 90's cadence in the 53/17 gear on my trainer gets me to threshold. Obviously this is trainer specific. If I went and bought a new trainer, I'd have to recalibrate. Then you can match your progress to what gearing you are able to use, occasionally probing the boundaries to see if you've improved. You can actually get pretty accurate if you go and buy a rear wheel speedometer and record average speed for your interval sessions. Speed on a trainer is correlated to power, so you can watch your average speeds and use those to benchmark improvements.
03-17-11, 10:34 PM
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Yeah, you guys are right. It is much longer. Still, intervals are good in and of themselves, whether or not you get any power data.
03-18-11, 07:57 AM
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I noticed this too. It's mostly due to the fact that when I'm in town I don't want to hurry up just to stop, then those bad habits carry over to the open country. I've also noticed that when I'm trying to maintain a Z2 ride, my HR spikes without my RPE noticing when I go downhill and pedal. Fickle.
03-18-11, 08:12 AM
#17
Senior Member
Before and after I got a PM, I trained basically in the same way:
- JRA rides in general
- race on Sunday, maybe Tuesday, maybe Wed. Fri off, Sat easy.
- If inspired and more than 2 days before a weekend race or willing to race on tired legs, go really hard.
- If tired take time off, usually totally off bike for a day.
With the PM I adapted slightly:
- now I know how hard I go when I go hard (180-200w avg)
- I've learned my JRA rides are typically 150-170 watts avg
- I've learned my races are typically 180-200 watts avg
- I get cool graphs at the end of the ride
I glance at the PM but other than a few times early on, I don't use power/HR to gauge much. I do go a bit easier at the beginning of short climbs (350w instead of 600w); I go a bit harder on very long climbs (180w instead of 150w). I also learned I accelerate very briskly, typically 800-1200w, from lights and stop signs.
That's how I train with or without a PM.
- JRA rides in general
- race on Sunday, maybe Tuesday, maybe Wed. Fri off, Sat easy.
- If inspired and more than 2 days before a weekend race or willing to race on tired legs, go really hard.
- If tired take time off, usually totally off bike for a day.
With the PM I adapted slightly:
- now I know how hard I go when I go hard (180-200w avg)
- I've learned my JRA rides are typically 150-170 watts avg
- I've learned my races are typically 180-200 watts avg
- I get cool graphs at the end of the ride
I glance at the PM but other than a few times early on, I don't use power/HR to gauge much. I do go a bit easier at the beginning of short climbs (350w instead of 600w); I go a bit harder on very long climbs (180w instead of 150w). I also learned I accelerate very briskly, typically 800-1200w, from lights and stop signs.
That's how I train with or without a PM.
Last edited by carpediemracing; 03-18-11 at 08:12 AM. Reason: forgot to add - that's how I'd train
03-18-11, 11:23 AM
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Above plus.... When I first got my power meter I discovered that I let up on the force on the pedals on downhill sections and HR does not record this. So after a climb, I was slightly fatigued so my force on the pedals on the downhill felt okay but in reality, I was getting a slight rest. So without power, just know that you have to shift into a bigger gear and maintain force on descents.
03-18-11, 09:55 PM
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Maybe try the PowerTap Cervo kit which gets you:
- Graphs (of the the following)
- Speed (instantaneous, avg, max)
- HR (instantaneous, avg, max)
- Cadence (instantaneous, avg, max)
Basically it's everything but the power data. That's a lot of data for $370. Use that until a wireless PowerTap wheel comes along that's in your budget, then just add that to the existing system above.
Full size: https://www.ryanbickerstaff.com/wp-co.../interval4.png
https://www.cycleops.com/products/cyc...&category_id=1
Last edited by carleton; 03-18-11 at 10:01 PM.
03-18-11, 10:55 PM
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03-19-11, 11:33 AM
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What's OLH stand for?
And for the record, I realized today that Intensity (power) is just one part of the three variables that increase fitness - Frequency and Duration being the other two. As long as I keep a journal (which I do) and use some familiar routes and workouts (which I do) I should be able to get what I want, which is better fitness.
For example, if I use this one climb that takes me 6 minutes to get up, I can increase the frequency by adding more repeats, like going from 5-6. Or if I'm riding tempo I can start increasing duration from 2 x 20min to 2 x 30min. While I don't have the exactness of a power meter, I do have RPE and HR. And cadence. That feels like enough.
Training on a bike is tricky. It's not like bodybuilding where you can pick up a weight and see that it weighs 30lbs or whatever. Still, the essentials are available. Training is actually pretty simple when you remember your basics and go from there. I feel like sometimes we tend to get bogged down in data or speculation.
And for the record, I realized today that Intensity (power) is just one part of the three variables that increase fitness - Frequency and Duration being the other two. As long as I keep a journal (which I do) and use some familiar routes and workouts (which I do) I should be able to get what I want, which is better fitness.
For example, if I use this one climb that takes me 6 minutes to get up, I can increase the frequency by adding more repeats, like going from 5-6. Or if I'm riding tempo I can start increasing duration from 2 x 20min to 2 x 30min. While I don't have the exactness of a power meter, I do have RPE and HR. And cadence. That feels like enough.
Training on a bike is tricky. It's not like bodybuilding where you can pick up a weight and see that it weighs 30lbs or whatever. Still, the essentials are available. Training is actually pretty simple when you remember your basics and go from there. I feel like sometimes we tend to get bogged down in data or speculation.
03-19-11, 04:50 PM
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What's OLH stand for?
And for the record, I realized today that Intensity (power) is just one part of the three variables that increase fitness - Frequency and Duration being the other two. As long as I keep a journal (which I do) and use some familiar routes and workouts (which I do) I should be able to get what I want, which is better fitness.
For example, if I use this one climb that takes me 6 minutes to get up, I can increase the frequency by adding more repeats, like going from 5-6. Or if I'm riding tempo I can start increasing duration from 2 x 20min to 2 x 30min. While I don't have the exactness of a power meter, I do have RPE and HR. And cadence. That feels like enough.
Training on a bike is tricky. It's not like bodybuilding where you can pick up a weight and see that it weighs 30lbs or whatever. Still, the essentials are available. Training is actually pretty simple when you remember your basics and go from there. I feel like sometimes we tend to get bogged down in data or speculation.
And for the record, I realized today that Intensity (power) is just one part of the three variables that increase fitness - Frequency and Duration being the other two. As long as I keep a journal (which I do) and use some familiar routes and workouts (which I do) I should be able to get what I want, which is better fitness.
For example, if I use this one climb that takes me 6 minutes to get up, I can increase the frequency by adding more repeats, like going from 5-6. Or if I'm riding tempo I can start increasing duration from 2 x 20min to 2 x 30min. While I don't have the exactness of a power meter, I do have RPE and HR. And cadence. That feels like enough.
Training on a bike is tricky. It's not like bodybuilding where you can pick up a weight and see that it weighs 30lbs or whatever. Still, the essentials are available. Training is actually pretty simple when you remember your basics and go from there. I feel like sometimes we tend to get bogged down in data or speculation.
OLH = Old La Honda. It is a climb that is 3.4 miles long with an average grade of 7.2%. It is the benchmark climb in our local area. Most know their time up OLH.
03-28-11, 05:06 PM
#23
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How about this as a training plan? Just go balls out every time.
Monday: Group ride, race pace
Wednesday: WRI's or hill repeats
Thursday: 2 x 20's @ threshold.
Saturday: Group ride, hammer near the front for as long as possible, recover in the pack, repeat.
Things I like about this training plan:
1. No need for power, just go really effing hard
2. Built-in recovery
Cons:
1. Burnout.
Monday: Group ride, race pace
Wednesday: WRI's or hill repeats
Thursday: 2 x 20's @ threshold.
Saturday: Group ride, hammer near the front for as long as possible, recover in the pack, repeat.
Things I like about this training plan:
1. No need for power, just go really effing hard
2. Built-in recovery
Cons:
1. Burnout.
03-28-11, 06:16 PM
#24
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How about this as a training plan? Just go balls out every time.
Monday: Group ride, race pace
Wednesday: WRI's or hill repeats
Thursday: 2 x 20's @ threshold.
Saturday: Group ride, hammer near the front for as long as possible, recover in the pack, repeat.
Things I like about this training plan:
1. No need for power, just go really effing hard
2. Built-in recovery
Cons:
1. Burnout.
Monday: Group ride, race pace
Wednesday: WRI's or hill repeats
Thursday: 2 x 20's @ threshold.
Saturday: Group ride, hammer near the front for as long as possible, recover in the pack, repeat.
Things I like about this training plan:
1. No need for power, just go really effing hard
2. Built-in recovery
Cons:
1. Burnout.
In other words, check out the Training Bible!
03-29-11, 07:20 AM
#25
Making a kilometer blurry
Yeah, you need to build different parts of your fitness in phases. WRIs are probably only appropriate for about four to six weeks at a time in my training plan, because I spend so much more time on build, getting my FTP up. It's a little different for everyone, but I think you'd do better to reserve the Wednesday ride for SST, VO2Max, or WRI, depending on where you are in your season, and what your real race limiters are. You might also let go of one of the group rides to put in a more focused FTP workout.