Climbing and W/Kg relationship...
04-01-11, 12:50 AM
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Climbing and W/Kg relationship...
As a 3.8 w/kg rider for a flat 20 min TT, at 77kg I feel like my power to weight ratio isn't a a blaringly obvious limiting factor, (though on the mighty bike forums power data scale I'm scarcely fit enough to commute) Despite my above average (for my Cat) w/kg ratio during hill climb races I get dropped like a bad disease. (Cat 4).
Am I missing something? Shouldn't a good power to weight ratio facilitate at least marginal climbing ability? I understand as the grade increases total plays larger role... I suppose I mean to ask, is power/weight and total weight (in my individual case) more important than technique for climbing? Should I focus on climbing strategy, pacing, etc? Or just keep drowning myself in FTP work outs? And dieting once season lets up?
Am I missing something? Shouldn't a good power to weight ratio facilitate at least marginal climbing ability? I understand as the grade increases total plays larger role... I suppose I mean to ask, is power/weight and total weight (in my individual case) more important than technique for climbing? Should I focus on climbing strategy, pacing, etc? Or just keep drowning myself in FTP work outs? And dieting once season lets up?
04-01-11, 06:04 AM
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Am I missing something? Shouldn't a good power to weight ratio facilitate at least marginal climbing ability? I understand as the grade increases total plays larger role... I suppose I mean to ask, is power/weight and total weight (in my individual case) more important than technique for climbing? Should I focus on climbing strategy, pacing, etc? Or just keep drowning myself in FTP work outs? And dieting once season lets up?
Maybe.
No.
Yes.
Maybe.
No, now.
You barely mentioned the mental aspect. Knowing when to go above your pace and how long you can be expected to hold it. Knowing when to stay on pace to avoid blowing up. Positioning yourself at the front of the group and surfing back to stay on pace. Your power meter can help you with this, but it's not a magic 8-ball. It can't predict results. Stop focusing on power and start focusing on technique. Group rides are good for this. On our group rides we have no problem at all when a rider wants to take off up a climb, or stay on pace and let the group go. We meet at the top anyway. So try to home your senses for what you are capable of and try a few things that could help you in a race.
Last edited by shovelhd; 04-01-11 at 06:08 AM.
04-01-11, 07:13 AM
#3
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You need a good ratio, no way around it. For shorter climbs you'll need a higher number, i.e. be able to put down some decent numbers.
When I lost 30 lbs (2009-2010) I noticed a huge difference in how I went up hills, just huge. My w/kg crept to the magical 3.0 mark (from 2.8w/kg when I was as fit as I got 240w/84kg to 3.0 at 210w/70kg - I may have gotten back up to 240w/71kg but I don't know).
For short climbs I typically have to put down about 6w/kg (500-600w) to stay with the group at a race like Bethel. Peak would be 800-900 each lap. This is different from the 20 min power thing.
Basically, since FTP is hard to change, you need to lose weight. That's been my approach. It's like VO2 max - you can't change that so you have to work on other things.
Of course this year I'm +10 lbs so I'm closer to the 2.8 than the 3.0w/kg.
When I lost 30 lbs (2009-2010) I noticed a huge difference in how I went up hills, just huge. My w/kg crept to the magical 3.0 mark (from 2.8w/kg when I was as fit as I got 240w/84kg to 3.0 at 210w/70kg - I may have gotten back up to 240w/71kg but I don't know).
For short climbs I typically have to put down about 6w/kg (500-600w) to stay with the group at a race like Bethel. Peak would be 800-900 each lap. This is different from the 20 min power thing.
Basically, since FTP is hard to change, you need to lose weight. That's been my approach. It's like VO2 max - you can't change that so you have to work on other things.
Of course this year I'm +10 lbs so I'm closer to the 2.8 than the 3.0w/kg.
04-01-11, 07:24 AM
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To the OP, how's your 10 minute, 5 minute, 1 minute power? Unless you're getting dropped on climbs of 10+ minutes, then FTP isn't necessarily going to play a huge part. As CDR aluded to, staying with groups on climbs often requires you to hold high wattage for several minutes, much higher than what your FTP is.
04-01-11, 08:07 AM
#5
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As a 3.8 w/kg rider for a flat 20 min TT, at 77kg I feel like my power to weight ratio isn't a a blaringly obvious limiting factor, (though on the mighty bike forums power data scale I'm scarcely fit enough to commute) Despite my above average (for my Cat) w/kg ratio during hill climb races I get dropped like a bad disease. (Cat 4).
Am I missing something? Shouldn't a good power to weight ratio facilitate at least marginal climbing ability? I understand as the grade increases total plays larger role... I suppose I mean to ask, is power/weight and total weight (in my individual case) more important than technique for climbing? Should I focus on climbing strategy, pacing, etc? Or just keep drowning myself in FTP work outs? And dieting once season lets up?
Am I missing something? Shouldn't a good power to weight ratio facilitate at least marginal climbing ability? I understand as the grade increases total plays larger role... I suppose I mean to ask, is power/weight and total weight (in my individual case) more important than technique for climbing? Should I focus on climbing strategy, pacing, etc? Or just keep drowning myself in FTP work outs? And dieting once season lets up?
As for training, with a threshold W/kg less than 4, I would focus on threshold. When I was Cat 4 I was a bit like you (similar W/kg). Lots of threshold work later and I can hold my own on most road courses without incurring too much damage on the hills.
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04-01-11, 08:36 AM
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^ End of last season, I was right around 3.8 w/kg, and I'm definitely not a climber.
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04-01-11, 09:11 AM
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In the Cat 4 field, I would expect a good climber to be able to sustain about 4.5 W/kg (this is threshold; i.e. 1hr, not 20 minutes) or more. In the 3's it's worse. The Coggan chart merely lists averages. The good riders in the field, the ones who are actually competing for the win, are going to far exceed their "categories" on the chart.
As for training, with a threshold W/kg less than 4, I would focus on threshold. When I was Cat 4 I was a bit like you (similar W/kg). Lots of threshold work later and I can hold my own on most road courses without incurring too much damage on the hills.
As for training, with a threshold W/kg less than 4, I would focus on threshold. When I was Cat 4 I was a bit like you (similar W/kg). Lots of threshold work later and I can hold my own on most road courses without incurring too much damage on the hills.
04-01-11, 09:12 AM
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To the OP, how's your 10 minute, 5 minute, 1 minute power? Unless you're getting dropped on climbs of 10+ minutes, then FTP isn't necessarily going to play a huge part. As CDR aluded to, staying with groups on climbs often requires you to hold high wattage for several minutes, much higher than what your FTP is.
04-01-11, 09:21 AM
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Brian is talking about a "good climber" in Cat 4. There are only a few good climbers in Cat 4. I wouldn't doubt that the podium at SDSR in Cat 4 have numbers that high.
04-01-11, 09:24 AM
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That's my experience anyway. I would regularly get dropped on hills at just under 4.0W/kg. And we are talking about climbers here. Get those same fellows in a cross wind and they get blown right off the back.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-01-11, 09:25 AM
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Yeah, I guess i'm not privy to other's power/weights but I'm not much +- 4.5w/kg right now and I'm fairly confident that I would squish the average cat 4 race like a bad habit.
04-01-11, 09:28 AM
#13
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-01-11, 09:48 AM
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Not quite sure where Ratliff is getting his data from. I was a "good" climber in the 3's and my 1 hour max is about 3.9. I won a 20 minute hillcimb with a 4.5-4.6.
To the OP, can you hold 3.8 on a hill also? My flat numbers are lower than my climbing ones. Yours might be the other way around if you're more psyched on the flats than the climbs. It hurts, but you have to train the weakness, esp if your weakness is FTP and you're not a track racer.
People can talk about technique, pedal stroke, and tactics all day long. At the end of the climb, the guy with the highest w/kg on that course is the guy that gets to the top first. Keep working on FTP, with the understanding that some shorter, harder efforts will be needed for races with hills shorter than 30-ish minutes. This shorter, harder work will also help to increase your FTP instead of just doing 2x20's all day.
To the OP, can you hold 3.8 on a hill also? My flat numbers are lower than my climbing ones. Yours might be the other way around if you're more psyched on the flats than the climbs. It hurts, but you have to train the weakness, esp if your weakness is FTP and you're not a track racer.
People can talk about technique, pedal stroke, and tactics all day long. At the end of the climb, the guy with the highest w/kg on that course is the guy that gets to the top first. Keep working on FTP, with the understanding that some shorter, harder efforts will be needed for races with hills shorter than 30-ish minutes. This shorter, harder work will also help to increase your FTP instead of just doing 2x20's all day.
04-01-11, 10:03 AM
#16
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Either you are seriously underestimating your W/kg, or the Oregon fields are more competitive than the Denver fields. My 1 hour max is a bit over 4 and I am far, far, far from a good climber in the Cat 3 field. For 20 minutes I can put out 4.5-ish W/kg and I wouldn't even be near the top of the field on a hill climb. I know the guys who are winning the hill climbs here, and I can't even hold their wheel for 5 minutes when they are running full bore up a climb.
But numbers aside, the larger point is spot on. On a climb, the only thing that matters is W/kg. If the OP is getting dropped with what he's capable of, the only solution is to increase his capabilities through threshold training. Doesn't matter the technique or all those other fine subtleties; those come later when you are battling in an even matchup. Doesn't matter what some chart in some book says. If you are getting dropped, then the only choice is to train harder (or race different races).
But numbers aside, the larger point is spot on. On a climb, the only thing that matters is W/kg. If the OP is getting dropped with what he's capable of, the only solution is to increase his capabilities through threshold training. Doesn't matter the technique or all those other fine subtleties; those come later when you are battling in an even matchup. Doesn't matter what some chart in some book says. If you are getting dropped, then the only choice is to train harder (or race different races).
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 04-01-11 at 10:15 AM.
04-01-11, 10:14 AM
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My nearest climb is a 70 mile route, do-able but it takes an entire day's dedication. I was a track sprinter before road: 18.3 w/kg peak, 9.6 w/kg 1 min, 4.9 w/kg 5 min( The 5 min is untested, just an arbitrary peak pulled off of WKO)
Flat races and crits I feel wonderful, plenty of gas in the tank for a good kick at the end at the pack sprint. Gotten lucky a few times and has some success. I'm just growing frustrated feeling so pigeon holed into flat racing, I'll try to spend more time chasing down the mountain goats on my team. To keep with the pelaton I normally attack before the climb and slowly drift back to the rear of the pack by the time we crest, then take fast lines down the hill to get back into a decent position.
@Racer Ex...Really? That makes me feel better, its been disgusting watching those lithe little bastards float away from me every time the ground begins to rise. I may be one of the accused Cat 4 sandbaggers, I've taken top 5 the past 5-6 crits...I won't / can't upgrade because my rr stats are abysmal to say the least.
@cdr... I'm a huge fan of your blog, it's been one of the best resources I've had learning this, my first, year of road racing. I've modeled a lot of my training and technique off of your info, I'm genetically similar to you; Cat 1 caliber sprint and the FTP of an asthmatic McDonald-ian. Do you cut weight during season? Or is weight management better left to winter and off-season?
Flat races and crits I feel wonderful, plenty of gas in the tank for a good kick at the end at the pack sprint. Gotten lucky a few times and has some success. I'm just growing frustrated feeling so pigeon holed into flat racing, I'll try to spend more time chasing down the mountain goats on my team. To keep with the pelaton I normally attack before the climb and slowly drift back to the rear of the pack by the time we crest, then take fast lines down the hill to get back into a decent position.
@Racer Ex...Really? That makes me feel better, its been disgusting watching those lithe little bastards float away from me every time the ground begins to rise. I may be one of the accused Cat 4 sandbaggers, I've taken top 5 the past 5-6 crits...I won't / can't upgrade because my rr stats are abysmal to say the least.
@cdr... I'm a huge fan of your blog, it's been one of the best resources I've had learning this, my first, year of road racing. I've modeled a lot of my training and technique off of your info, I'm genetically similar to you; Cat 1 caliber sprint and the FTP of an asthmatic McDonald-ian. Do you cut weight during season? Or is weight management better left to winter and off-season?
04-01-11, 10:26 AM
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OP: Have you done Mt. Diablo?
04-01-11, 10:28 AM
#20
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Just reporting what I've noticed from racing here. I think your powermeter is mis-calibrated 
.
.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-01-11, 10:32 AM
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~6000 feet of elevation is reported to be worth about an 8 to 10% reduction and many of our climbs start around there. I don't know what your experience is when going to sea level Brian but I had the luxury of riding in Indiana last time I was home visiting the family. I was sick with the flu and still set an all time one hour record on a completely flat route.
04-01-11, 10:36 AM
#22
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^^^
Actually, I think you are onto something here. Being a mile high will certainly affect your power output. 10% would put appleby's numbers right in the range I've observed in Oregon.
Actually, I think you are onto something here. Being a mile high will certainly affect your power output. 10% would put appleby's numbers right in the range I've observed in Oregon.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-01-11, 10:43 AM
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I think Brian's numbers are a decent ballpark estimate. I'm competitive in the 3s and my FTP is only ~4.3-4.4 W/kg
04-01-11, 10:51 AM
#24
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Good climbers tend to be good climbers regardless of category. Get good climbers from every category and you'll have a group of riders with very similar w/kg and very similar climbing speed. The good 5s will climb with the good 4s will climb with the good 3s will climb with many of the 2s. That's the extent of my experience/knowledge.
Climbing is where tactics basically mean nothing. Yeah, there's a draft, kind of. Yeah, you can do this or that trick. But when my untrained friend in SoCal beats me up the actual Palomar climb by 30 minutes... little things don't matter.
Climbing is where tactics basically mean nothing. Yeah, there's a draft, kind of. Yeah, you can do this or that trick. But when my untrained friend in SoCal beats me up the actual Palomar climb by 30 minutes... little things don't matter.
04-01-11, 11:10 AM
#25
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If you haven't done a long block of *only* endurance riding, then put that on the schedule... will probably have to wait until after the season. I'm talking about 10+ weeks of only Z2 or Z3 riding. Go longer and slower, if you have the time. If you want to build your aerobic capacity to your genetic max, this is necessary IMO.