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More Doping implications at Phonak

Old 10-30-04, 12:16 PM
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More Doping implications at Phonak

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/7150.0.html





Santi Perez (Phonak), runner-up in the 2004 Vuelta a España, may have tested positive for blood doping, according to the Spanish daily MARCA.

The daily suggests that the result may have come from the A sample in an out-of-competition test, adding that it is not yet certain whether the alleged blood doping involved the transfusion of Perez' own blood or the blood of another.

MARCA also suggested that there might have been a procedural problem with the examination of the B sample, saying that neither Perez nor a representative of his team was present.

This might explain the delay in any official announcement from the UCI or the Spanish cycling federation, as well as the failure to date of Phonak and Perez to reach agreement on a new contract, the daily added.

Phonak's contracts include a dismissal clause for any rider found guilty of a medical violation, MARCA said.

Perez, the revelation of this year's Vuelta, abruptly withdrew from the Spanish world's team on September 27, citing a bout of gastroenteritis. Earlier, American Tyler Hamilton abandoned the Vuelta, also blaming stomach problems, after his A sample tested positive for blood doping at the Athens Olympics and both A and B samples tested positive at the Vuelta.

Hamilton's B sample from Athens was mishandled and the International Olympic Committee subsequently ended its inquiry into the matter, though he still faces a possible two-year suspension for the positive at the Vuelta.

Both Hamilton and Phonak proclaim innocence in the matter and plan to challenge the test as scientifically untrustworthy.
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Old 10-30-04, 12:39 PM
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Feel free to yell at me about 'innocent until proven guilty', but I automatically thought Perez was blood doping during the Vuelta. Not just a mild assumption... but more like "I'm over 90% sure". So I'm not suprised to hear something like this.
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Old 10-30-04, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
Feel free to yell at me about 'innocent until proven guilty', but I automatically thought Perez was blood doping during the Vuelta. Not just a mild assumption... but more like "I'm over 90% sure". So I'm not suprised to hear something like this.
Same here. I'm not surprised in the least, and I don't really care either.
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Old 10-30-04, 01:39 PM
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This may have happened and this might have been. Get real!
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Old 10-30-04, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
Feel free to yell at me about 'innocent until proven guilty', but I automatically thought Perez was blood doping during the Vuelta. Not just a mild assumption... but more like "I'm over 90% sure". So I'm not suprised to hear something like this.
I'm not going to dispute you but I am just curious as to how you came about to assume that.
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Old 10-30-04, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by khuon
I'm not going to dispute you but I am just curious as to how you came about to assume that.
Probably judging by his performance, and his performance comparison from day to day, and in comparison to his past performances, and also taking into consideration the fact that one of his teamates (at least one) was doing the same thing in the same race. (team doctors take care of this stuff... I doubt they blood dope on their own)

Originally Posted by Devil
Same here. I'm not surprised in the least, and I don't really care either.
I cared, because it sucks to see a competition be so screwed up by one guy doping in a way that others aren't.
Don't care so much now - I'm getting too close to the 'everyone is on drugs' idea, while not being content enough with that knowledge to still enjoy watching the sport
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Old 10-30-04, 04:12 PM
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man, its feeling like 1998 again...


actually I didn't follow cycling in 1998...but still. It seems like the sport is falling apart (again)
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Old 10-30-04, 05:37 PM
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There's those stomach problems again. It's almost like saying, "Hey, look at me over here! I'm doping!" You'd think they'd come up with something different. Rickets. Sickle cell. Allergic reaction to carbon fiber. Anything really.
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Old 10-30-04, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
Feel free to yell at me about 'innocent until proven guilty', but I automatically thought Perez was blood doping during the Vuelta. Not just a mild assumption... but more like "I'm over 90% sure". So I'm not suprised to hear something like this.
This is what always happens - Oh yeah, he is Spanish, must be doping. I mean how can any normal human ride like that?
Then when it’s an American, everyone freaks out and "rallies" behind the honest, humble, Tyler Hamilton. What made you question Santi Perez’s performance this year more so than Hamiltons 2003 year?

Get real you guys, 95% of all riders in the European pro peloton are druggies.
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Old 10-31-04, 09:32 AM
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Same feeling about Perez during the Vuelta. From nobody to big guy in three months, it just didn't sound possible.

Anyway, the pattern at Phonak is showing by now: Camenzind, then Hamilton and now Perez. Who´s next and who will believe that the team is innocent.
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Old 10-31-04, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Gustaf
This is what always happens - Oh yeah, he is Spanish, must be doping. I mean how can any normal human ride like that?
Then when it’s an American, everyone freaks out and "rallies" behind the honest, humble, Tyler Hamilton. What made you question Santi Perez’s performance this year more so than Hamiltons 2003 year?
I'm confused if you are just asking me, or if those are all assumptions (based on absolutely nothing).
What does him being Spanish have to do with anything?
Since when have I been "rallying" behind Tyler Hamilton?
Am I not allowed to say that someone is a doper if I'm American?
How do you know if I questioned Perez more than Hamilton in 2003?
Or, what are you trying to say?


Get real you guys, 95% of all riders in the European pro peloton are druggies.
But it isn't true to say that 95% of pros were blood doping this year.
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Old 10-31-04, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
Probably judging by his performance, and his performance comparison from day to day, and in comparison to his past performances, and also taking into consideration the fact that one of his teamates (at least one) was doing the same thing in the same race. (team doctors take care of this stuff... I doubt they blood dope on their own)
Santi was included in Phonak's TDF team for reasons at the time I could not understand. He has had one win in his career and that was by default when he finished second to Simoni on a stage that Simoni tested positive after and Santi was given the win.

However, I never thought, "He must be doping because one of his teammates(you must mean Camenzid because Tyler wasn't implicated at that time) was caught doping, and he has never won before."

I did think he may have come into a peak, {what everyone attributes Lance's phenomenal one-time-per-season success' to } , and may have reached a maturity level that quite possibly surprised him as much as it surprised everyone else. Not unlike Cunego, although Cunego has some past history of high level success.

For those of you who do not convict on an accusation, rumor, or suspicion, Santi Perez came out and claimed he is innocent, as reported by Radio France yesterday.
 
Old 10-31-04, 12:21 PM
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i'm confused: this type of blood doping, which i think is where they take blood (from the rider or others), swirl it around to separate the red blood cells from the rest of the crap, and inject the rbc's back into the rider, seems kind of stupid to me. isn't it going to have the same results as either training at altitude or sleeping in an oxygen tent? both of which are not illegal? so the result is to just get your count of rbc's up, right? but you can only go to 50 % anyways by uci limits. so just sleep in an oxygen tent until you're at 50%? maybe some guys can't get that high naturally(sic), so they have to resort to this type of blood doping? can anyone explain?

thanks.

ps. anyone know where i can get me one of those oxygen tents?
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Old 10-31-04, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
I'm confused if you are just asking me, or if those are all assumptions (based on absolutely nothing).
What does him being Spanish have to do with anything?
Since when have I been "rallying" behind Tyler Hamilton?
Am I not allowed to say that someone is a doper if I'm American?
How do you know if I questioned Perez more than Hamilton in 2003?
Or, what are you trying to say?
Yeah, sorry. All that wasn’t necessarily directed at you.
More so to the cycling community who are obsessed with Tyler - and consequently flip out when any doping allegations are leveled against him – and then when it comes out that someone else might have been doping they are just like “Yeah, I expected that”
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Old 10-31-04, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gustaf
This is what always happens - Oh yeah, he is Spanish, must be doping. I mean how can any normal human ride like that?
Then when it’s an American, everyone freaks out and "rallies" behind the honest, humble, Tyler Hamilton. What made you question Santi Perez’s performance this year more so than Hamiltons 2003 year?

Get real you guys, 95% of all riders in the European pro peloton are druggies.
We’ve got more specifics about the Hamilton positives than the Perez positives, so it’s easier to comment. We don’t know if doping in this case means transfusion, EPO, antihistamines, steroids, or some other performance enhancing or steroid masking drugs or even a recreational drug. Hamilton is accused of failing a test which was used for the first time-a test which has not yet been scrutinized on reliability
Hamilton’s higher stature as an Olympic champion vs. Perez’s status as a Vuelta runnerup means there would be more comment with Hamilton.
Given the teammate situation with Perez and Hamilton, it raises a more than coincidence suspicion on both.

So there is less comment at this time regarding Perez.
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Old 10-31-04, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hair07
i'm confused: this type of blood doping, which i think is where they take blood (from the rider or others), swirl it around to separate the red blood cells from the rest of the crap, and inject the rbc's back into the rider, seems kind of stupid to me. isn't it going to have the same results as either training at altitude or sleeping in an oxygen tent? both of which are not illegal? so the result is to just get your count of rbc's up, right? but you can only go to 50 % anyways by uci limits. so just sleep in an oxygen tent until you're at 50%? maybe some guys can't get that high naturally(sic), so they have to resort to this type of blood doping? can anyone explain?

thanks.

ps. anyone know where i can get me one of those oxygen tents?
Altitude training will legally increase your red blood cell count-the body manufactures more blood cells to adapt to the high altitude. EPO and/or transsfusions will increase red blood cell count more- so there is an opportunity to perform superior to altitude training with the EPO and/or transfusions.
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Old 10-31-04, 02:26 PM
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Let's see if this works ... I've attached a copy of the paper that is the basis for the test for homologous blood transfusions. I don't know that this is the test that Perez failed. It is, however, the test that Hamilton failed. If there are any scientists on the board, you may get a kick out of it.

<p.s. I know this technology and have a very high degree of confidence in the accuracy of the test>

-mark
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Old 10-31-04, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hair07
so just sleep in an oxygen tent until you're at 50%? maybe some guys can't get that high naturally(sic), so they have to resort to this type of blood doping? can anyone explain?
Over a grand tour, the hematocrit will naturally decrease from day to day, after that training. With altitude training, maybe you could start around 48%, but be 42% by the last week, for example. But then you could inject blood and get it back up near 50% towards the end of the race. (note how Perez wasn't all that grand until late in the race)
Lemond used to say that doping didn't really help in single day races, because you could just do that sort of high altitude training to prepare, instead of using EPO.

Originally Posted by don d.

I did think he may have come into a peak, {what everyone attributes Lance's phenomenal one-time-per-season success' to } , and may have reached a maturity level that quite possibly surprised him as much as it surprised everyone else. Not unlike Cunego, although Cunego has some past history of high level success.
Well, it was a very amazing 'peak' that he achieved. He was recovering better than those grand tour winning veterans.
Cunego came into the Giro already being at his best (or very close) in the first week.

Originally Posted by don d.
However, I never thought, "He must be doping because one of his teammates(you must mean Camenzid because Tyler wasn't implicated at that time)."
Tyler was, at the start of the final week.
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Old 10-31-04, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Gustaf
Yeah, sorry. All that wasn’t necessarily directed at you.
More so to the cycling community who are obsessed with Tyler - and consequently flip out when any doping allegations are leveled against him – and then when it comes out that someone else might have been doping they are just like “Yeah, I expected that”
Just in case that's directed towards me, I'm of the opinion that almost the entire peloton is doping in some form or another. I didn't defend Tyler Hamilton when he tested positive (twice), unlike most other members on this forum who came up with the most idiotic reasons as to what happened - from Phonak secretly controlling the UCI and the IOC to ensure a leader's position for Landis next year to Tyler having Down's Syndrome, I think I'd heard it all.

I just ignore the doping and enjoy the show.
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Old 10-31-04, 05:13 PM
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I wonder if Hamilton and Perez have the same Blood type, and the team doctors mislabled it, or made an error and swapped em. Or Maybe Santi Perez has a Down syndrome, HAHAHAAHAA!!
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Old 10-31-04, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by brent_dube
Tyler was, at the start of the final week.
Tyler's positive was announced to the public on Stage 16, after Santi had won Stages 14 and 15.

Santi had been listed as a climber on Phonak's website, so his results were consistent with his type, although not consistent with his past.

There is one way that Tyler and Santi could have "mixed" blood if they were roommates and if...well, I don't want to go there.
 
Old 10-31-04, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Devil
I just ignore the doping and enjoy the show.
This is an interesting perspective. While I do not ignore the doping myself, I have resigned myself to it because bike racing is such a good show, at least for me.

Watching the riders and following the racing, learning from their riding styles, learning the tactics, and appreciating the culture surrounding the racing are the rewards that I have reaped from not allowing myself to become disillusioned by the sordidness of doping.

Doping has many effects on the sport, all in my opinion negative. But the immediate effects of doping are on results, and results are interesting, but not why I follow bike racing. For those who are concerned only with the results, who the winners are, doping is bound to sully their interest in the sport and turn them away. I would suggest to those individuals that they actually follow bike racing, not results. Then perhaps they could find some enjoyment in the show despite the distraction created by doping.

Doping also casts doubt on the character of the riders, but the character of a rider is not reflected in their pedal stroke, how they sit on the bike, the tactics used by the teams, or the history of the sport. These things still interest and fascinate me and doping will not change that.

Last edited by don d.; 10-31-04 at 07:50 PM.
 
Old 10-31-04, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gustaf
Yeah, sorry. All that wasn’t necessarily directed at you.
More so to the cycling community who are obsessed with Tyler - and consequently flip out when any doping allegations are leveled against him – and then when it comes out that someone else might have been doping they are just like “Yeah, I expected that”
Well, now we KNOW Tyler is innocent. It must a conspiracy against Phonak done by two separate sports governing bodies, paid off by Lance Armstrong. (hey, if you dont think you can beat your rivals, get them caught doping so you dont have to!)
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