Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Spinner to a fault

Old 04-29-11, 01:59 PM
  #26  
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I also tend to be a spinner in races, most comfortable between 95-105rpm. It does get your heart rate up and keep it up. If I'm in a crit, after the pace calms for a bit, I don't want to press the issue and want a little rest, I'll shift down a gear or two and drop the rpms down to the 80's. Before long my heart rate and respiration rate drop. It helps, especially if it's race #2 for the day and at a higher level than normal; i.e. I already did an M45+ race and the second race is P/1/2/3. It also leaves me vulnerable, so I don't stay there for long, just enough for a short break.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 04-29-11, 06:17 PM
  #27  
Version 7.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,111

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1335 Post(s)
Liked 2,465 Times in 1,441 Posts
You should come out to the Hellyer track and show us your spin.

When I am getting my butt kicked, I try fast spin, slow spin and other. My butt still gets kicked.

Training and racing are a different matter, IMO. I train at faster cadence, slower cadence and self select. One can always choose to spin slower but one must train to spin faster.
Hermes is online now  
Old 04-29-11, 08:11 PM
  #28  
Senior Member
 
calRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Posts: 242

Bikes: Cannondale Synapse SL1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've been following Friel's book for a couple of years, but I found a good workout in Carmichael's Ultimate Ride book. He recommends doing Tempo rides at 88% of your field test avg heart rate at 70-75RPM for up to 120 mins. (He specifies this 3 mile field test that basically has you go full gas for the whole time, then use your average heart rate for the test to find the rest of your zones--I really prefer Friel's field test). I never really worried too much about low cadence work before, because when I wanted to put the legs under pressure, I'd just go climb a hill (easy to find in the Bay Area). Now that I live in Florida, that's impossible, so I'm trying this Tempo workout...I can't say whether or not it's worked for me yet, I'll know in another month.

If you haven't read Carmichael's book yet, don't. I don't think it's worth it. The tempo ride was the only thing that I really took away from it.
calRider is offline  
Old 04-30-11, 06:38 PM
  #29  
Senior Member
 
Nick Bain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Driftless
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: Caad8, Mukluk 3, Trek Superfly, Gary Fisher Irwin.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Fat Boy
I was being sarcastic.
noooo.
Nick Bain is offline  
Old 05-02-11, 03:50 PM
  #30  
Faster than yesterday
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 1,510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
By the way, spinning is something that you'll eventually lose (generally) as the fast twitch muscles that produce that effect degenerate over time with age.
Yeah, you lose type II fibers with age, and cadence can also slow with age, but those two things probably aren't related; the fall in cadence is probably neurological, and training at a high cadence should help preserve it. Part of what's going on, that physiologically helps spinners stave off fatigue, is that the work is actually shifted to the type I fibers, which contract asynchronously. So by spinning, you've shifted the brunt of the work to more fatigue-resistant fibers, and different motor units get little bouts of rest while the others take over. The type II's are not highly involved unless you're going for higher force and/or very fast movements.

You'd expect sprinters and mashers to use more type II fibers. There are also various biomechanical arguments to consider, such as lever lengths (i.e. crural index). You might, in general, expect guys with longer femurs to have less mechanical advantage in hip extension, for example, which plays into saddle position and riding style.

Last edited by tadawdy; 05-02-11 at 03:58 PM.
tadawdy is offline  
Old 05-03-11, 01:30 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
BudFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Anselmo, CA
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I tried 3X15 zone 4 strength intervals yesterday. I'm guessing my average cadence was around 70, much slower than normal. My joints are sore today from the extra torque, but it really felt good. I got a harder muscular workout then I did during my 50 mile road race on Saturday. I plan to do this once a week from now on.
BudFox is offline  
Old 05-03-11, 02:01 PM
  #32  
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Posts: 10,123

Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Dude! If your joints are sore, stop doing what you're doing! Why are people okay with the idea that joint pain is normal? You can't just start pushing huge gears. You have to work up to it so you don't shred your tendons and ligaments. Last thing you want is some season ending knee or tendon injury because you decided to do a workout you heard about on the internets.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If youre new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, youd probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline  
Old 05-03-11, 02:52 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
BudFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Anselmo, CA
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Dude! If your joints are sore, stop doing what you're doing! Why are people okay with the idea that joint pain is normal? You can't just start pushing huge gears. You have to work up to it so you don't shred your tendons and ligaments. Last thing you want is some season ending knee or tendon injury because you decided to do a workout you heard about on the internets.
It could be muscle soreness, but not the usual soreness. More around the shins and ankles from pulling around the pedal stroke. I am a little sore in the top of one knee, probably from getting lazy and pushing down on the pedal too hard.

I'm convinced now that I need to balance my training with more variation of cadence, especially on the flats.
BudFox is offline  
Old 05-03-11, 03:55 PM
  #34  
Two wheels is two wheels
 
pelikan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane, CA
Posts: 876

Bikes: Pee Wee Herman Special

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hermes
You should come out to the Hellyer track and show us your spin.
+1
pelikan is offline  
Old 05-03-11, 10:56 PM
  #35  
Senior Member
 
Nick Bain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Driftless
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: Caad8, Mukluk 3, Trek Superfly, Gary Fisher Irwin.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
3x15 in zone 4 at 70 rpm, is probably the most dangerous/advanced leg workout I've heard of, zone 4 is past LT right?
Then again I killed my legs in a week with tempos, damn trainer.
Nick Bain is offline  
Old 05-04-11, 06:26 AM
  #36  
You blink and it's gone.
 
rbart4506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dundas, Ontario
Posts: 4,436

Bikes: Race bike, training bike, go fast bike and a trainer slave.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Careful with the low cadence work...It can do some pretty good damage as was stated above...PLUS! If you are a spinner all you are doing is training your body to become a masher, which it is not...Like I said above, the goal is to push the next bigger gear at the same cadence...That is how you get faster!

I tend to be a spinner as well, average 105-110 in most races (unless there's lots of climbing). My coach does not have me doing any low cadence work, in fact he has me working on spinning more then anything....Speed + Torque = Power!
rbart4506 is offline  
Old 05-04-11, 06:40 AM
  #37  
Batw Creakcreak
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The illadelph
Posts: 20,784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 228 Post(s)
Liked 288 Times in 160 Posts
3x15 is a lot.

If you want to get faster, spin, but click down to a smaller cog and spin it as fast. Low cadence drills are great for like 5 min intervals, but 15 mins is asking for tendinitis especially if you're diving straight into them without any prep work...
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 05-04-11, 02:18 PM
  #38  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
BudFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Anselmo, CA
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nick Bain
3x15 in zone 4 at 70 rpm, is probably the most dangerous/advanced leg workout I've heard of, zone 4 is past LT right?
Then again I killed my legs in a week with tempos, damn trainer.
Zone 4 is below and just up to LT, though I stayed in the middle of the zone. Probably should have been a little lower HR but I must contend with wind and hills too.
BudFox is offline  
Old 05-04-11, 02:38 PM
  #39  
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Posts: 10,123

Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Just be careful with your overgeared workouts. When I was in my early 20's (about eight years ago), I decided I wanted to ride in the big ring (I was still a recreational rider riding a triple) and so just started riding everywhere massively overgeared. Got knee pain that didn't go away for a year. I built strength and the big ring is the normal ring for me now, but I almost f**ked myself in the process. Don't do this. Ease into it.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If youre new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, youd probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline  
Old 05-04-11, 03:03 PM
  #40  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I personally monitor and play with cadence a lot. In races I tend to spin (ave. cadence in last nights was 111 for 45' of racing) however I will slow my cadence while drafting to give my fast twitch muscles a rest but still save my slow twitch muscles. When it then comes time to sprint, I'll spin it up with the fast twitch and finish with the fresher slow twitch muscles.
Out-The-Back is offline  
Old 05-04-11, 04:27 PM
  #41  
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,697
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 278 Post(s)
Liked 217 Times in 102 Posts
You are confused. While the maximal contraction velocity of a slow twitch fiber is less than that of a fast twitch fiber -they are more than fast enough to rapidly “spin” a crank.

Motor neuron recruitment patterns are generally dictated by the amount of force required. At low forces only the small motor neurons (which control slow twitch fibers) are activated; as the force demand increases additional, and larger, neurons become activated and these larger neurons control the fast fibers.

So, albeit counter intuitively, when you are spinning (high-rep, low-force) you are putting more of the total work on the slow fibers despite the faster leg speed. Clear as mud?
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 05-04-11, 11:21 PM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Nick Bain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Driftless
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: Caad8, Mukluk 3, Trek Superfly, Gary Fisher Irwin.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I just realized something. how many different ways are there to pedal a dang bike!?
Nick Bain is offline  
Old 05-05-11, 04:43 AM
  #43  
STP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 302
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In my preparation for riding the big ring and building strength, albeit an unorthodox one, I just figured out the gear ratio that I needed in order to push a certain speed at a given rpm and then built up my single speed around that ratio and trained on it for a months. My goal is always to be in my natural 105 rpm cadence and slowly move up my miles per hour by switching ratios over time. The strength buildings comes from riding hills or against the wind, all while keeping the same rpm.

The unorthodox part, I guess, is my focus on rpm as the sole constant in the pedal workout. By the way, I have a single speed road and mountain bike so I am able to ride on road or off to build strength.
STP is offline  
Old 05-05-11, 08:42 AM
  #44  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Enthalpic
You are confused.
Nothing new about that...Fast twitch, slow twitch, small neurons, larger neurons...whatever it takes to get my fat ass moving!
Out-The-Back is offline  
Old 05-05-11, 09:12 AM
  #45  
Batw Creakcreak
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The illadelph
Posts: 20,784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 228 Post(s)
Liked 288 Times in 160 Posts
I was going to say something, but didn't because I knew that enthalpic was going to do it anyway.
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 05-05-11, 09:46 AM
  #46  
Version 7.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,111

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1335 Post(s)
Liked 2,465 Times in 1,441 Posts
Budfox, My advice is not to change anything in the middle of race season. Wait until the fall.

However, here is Sarah Hammer, World Champion trackie, winning the scratch race and the omnium. Check out how fast they spin and how long Sarah holds of the field.


And here is Taylor Phinney at LAV who claims to spin at 120 rpm in the pursuit.


Higher spin does not seem to inhibit these trackies from producing a lot of power.

I think you need to come to the track and workout with us. We will show you how to pump up your high cadence power.
Hermes is online now  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
denvertrout
Training & Nutrition
2
07-08-15 08:13 AM
RShantz
Road Cycling
26
05-18-15 06:28 PM
dleccord
Road Cycling
6
07-20-14 10:56 AM
gl98115
Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area
4
05-26-14 03:55 PM
bja70
Training & Nutrition
13
01-29-14 08:49 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.