The Race Video Thread!
06-05-13, 12:07 AM
#501
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There are two parts to the crash.
The first is that the rider in front takes a bad line. He turns in early, he's on the hoods, and he can't correct properly. This slows him down and has him end up more inside. If he'd turned in later he wouldn't have had to slow down because he'd have been parallel to the guy in front of him and he could have just passed him or drawn up next to him. If he was on the drops he'd be lower up front, have more control over the bike, have a bit more weight on the front end, enabling him to turn in harder without slowing, even if he'd taken a bad line (like turning in early). The early turn in is the main reason for the weird line here - it's absolutely the most common error made by anyone in a wheeled vehicle, whether driving or riding.
(This is why you should be super aware of how you drive because the things that become automatic in your car will also become automatic on the bike, like not turning in early.)
The second part is the rider with the camera. He does some things wrong also. He turns in even earlier than the guy in front of him. It's a natural reaction that when the person in front of you turns in early that you do too. If you persevere and do a normal or turn in (typically I follow the line of the rider to my outside) then you'll have the widest range of options at the turn out point, i.e. the exit of the turn. A late turn in means you're going to be pointing down the next straight earlier so you aren't forced to try and keep turning just to stay upright.
The rider in back had a couple chances to save himself. First, he could have simply turned in later. Held a straight line for another fraction of a second and then turned in.
Second, he could have simply gone to the other rider's outside in the middle of the turn. I know that breaks the rule of going to the inside but when someone is struggling to hold their line sometimes I find it better to follow the path of least resistance. In this case that means going to the outside of the rider in front, the rider that is making errors.
Third, he definitely could have made it through after contact if he'd pushed. This is a good example of when to really hold your bars and barge forward. At this point it's really survival, it's not about being fair or nice to others or whatever. The camera rider, once he contacts the rear wheel of the guy in front, well his priority has to be to stay upright, or, if he's going to crash, to try and control how he crashes. It seems that he barely contacted the rider - if it had been significant and severe contact he'd have been flipped to the side. Instead he does a slow topple. This is indicative of minor contact. In this case a push would have pushed the rear wheel in front of him sideways a bit. The rider in front should be able to recover (a rear wheel slide is basically a non-incident) and the camera rider would have stayed upright and the crisis ends.
With touching wheels there's the "pull the wheel back" and the "push on through" to solve contact. The camera rider could have stood up, pulled the bike back hard, and probably cleared the wheel to the left of the rider in front. At that point the crisis ends.
If he was too far overlapped to do that then a firm grip on the bars would have done wonders. The camera rider could have maintained his cornering line, maybe tightened it up a bit (seems like he wasn't maxed out, he was just caught out by the rider in front moving in), and, with a very firm grip on the bars, kept the bike moving along its natural trajectory, regardless of contact with the wheel in front of him.
It sounds like it's a lot to think about and, if you're trying to remember all this for the first time, it definitely is. This is why I always try to be aware of cornering dynamics, always always always always always always. Any time I'm cornering, whether I'm walking, pushing a shopping cart, playing with Matchbox cars, driving a real car, or riding my bike, I'm constantly thinking about cornering dynamics. Late turn in. What if there's a person with an overloaded cart coming my way around the corner. Okay do a really late turn in so the apex is 3 feet from the shelf so I have clearance for that overloaded cart.
If you focus on your driving, your riding, your walking, your Matchbox cars, your shopping cart lines, it becomes automatic. I mistakenly practiced "outside-inside-outside" when I was a kid, 12 or 13, with my Matchbox cars. When I realized that late apexes are where it's at (probably in my 20s) that became my focus.
A great way to think about late apexes is to play some car video games. They really punish you for early turn in - if you end up hitting the wall on the turn out then you're apexing too early or simply going too fast. A late apex will have you skimming the wall/curb/etc as you go blasting out of the turn.
Turning in late is against your natural instinct. Even I'll turn in early if I lose my nerve. The key is to try and make turning in later a viable option in your mind.
The first is that the rider in front takes a bad line. He turns in early, he's on the hoods, and he can't correct properly. This slows him down and has him end up more inside. If he'd turned in later he wouldn't have had to slow down because he'd have been parallel to the guy in front of him and he could have just passed him or drawn up next to him. If he was on the drops he'd be lower up front, have more control over the bike, have a bit more weight on the front end, enabling him to turn in harder without slowing, even if he'd taken a bad line (like turning in early). The early turn in is the main reason for the weird line here - it's absolutely the most common error made by anyone in a wheeled vehicle, whether driving or riding.
(This is why you should be super aware of how you drive because the things that become automatic in your car will also become automatic on the bike, like not turning in early.)
The second part is the rider with the camera. He does some things wrong also. He turns in even earlier than the guy in front of him. It's a natural reaction that when the person in front of you turns in early that you do too. If you persevere and do a normal or turn in (typically I follow the line of the rider to my outside) then you'll have the widest range of options at the turn out point, i.e. the exit of the turn. A late turn in means you're going to be pointing down the next straight earlier so you aren't forced to try and keep turning just to stay upright.
The rider in back had a couple chances to save himself. First, he could have simply turned in later. Held a straight line for another fraction of a second and then turned in.
Second, he could have simply gone to the other rider's outside in the middle of the turn. I know that breaks the rule of going to the inside but when someone is struggling to hold their line sometimes I find it better to follow the path of least resistance. In this case that means going to the outside of the rider in front, the rider that is making errors.
Third, he definitely could have made it through after contact if he'd pushed. This is a good example of when to really hold your bars and barge forward. At this point it's really survival, it's not about being fair or nice to others or whatever. The camera rider, once he contacts the rear wheel of the guy in front, well his priority has to be to stay upright, or, if he's going to crash, to try and control how he crashes. It seems that he barely contacted the rider - if it had been significant and severe contact he'd have been flipped to the side. Instead he does a slow topple. This is indicative of minor contact. In this case a push would have pushed the rear wheel in front of him sideways a bit. The rider in front should be able to recover (a rear wheel slide is basically a non-incident) and the camera rider would have stayed upright and the crisis ends.
With touching wheels there's the "pull the wheel back" and the "push on through" to solve contact. The camera rider could have stood up, pulled the bike back hard, and probably cleared the wheel to the left of the rider in front. At that point the crisis ends.
If he was too far overlapped to do that then a firm grip on the bars would have done wonders. The camera rider could have maintained his cornering line, maybe tightened it up a bit (seems like he wasn't maxed out, he was just caught out by the rider in front moving in), and, with a very firm grip on the bars, kept the bike moving along its natural trajectory, regardless of contact with the wheel in front of him.
It sounds like it's a lot to think about and, if you're trying to remember all this for the first time, it definitely is. This is why I always try to be aware of cornering dynamics, always always always always always always. Any time I'm cornering, whether I'm walking, pushing a shopping cart, playing with Matchbox cars, driving a real car, or riding my bike, I'm constantly thinking about cornering dynamics. Late turn in. What if there's a person with an overloaded cart coming my way around the corner. Okay do a really late turn in so the apex is 3 feet from the shelf so I have clearance for that overloaded cart.
If you focus on your driving, your riding, your walking, your Matchbox cars, your shopping cart lines, it becomes automatic. I mistakenly practiced "outside-inside-outside" when I was a kid, 12 or 13, with my Matchbox cars. When I realized that late apexes are where it's at (probably in my 20s) that became my focus.
A great way to think about late apexes is to play some car video games. They really punish you for early turn in - if you end up hitting the wall on the turn out then you're apexing too early or simply going too fast. A late apex will have you skimming the wall/curb/etc as you go blasting out of the turn.
Turning in late is against your natural instinct. Even I'll turn in early if I lose my nerve. The key is to try and make turning in later a viable option in your mind.
Thanks for the detailed answer. I don't know why I thought staying relaxed would help in a wheel rub, I guess that only works for bumping/getting bumped.
I played a ton I know exactly what you mean.
Regarding pushing through, is the theory the same as a bike throw for the finish line?
06-05-13, 03:36 AM
#502
out walking the earth
06-05-13, 06:02 AM
#503
Senior Member
Thanks for the detailed answer. I don't know why I thought staying relaxed would help in a wheel rub, I guess that only works for bumping/getting bumped.
I played a ton I know exactly what you mean.
Regarding pushing through, is the theory the same as a bike throw for the finish line?
I played a ton I know exactly what you mean.
Regarding pushing through, is the theory the same as a bike throw for the finish line?
06-05-13, 09:17 AM
#504
Making a kilometer blurry
06-05-13, 02:51 PM
#505
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It's different. It's more of a "hang onto your bars and barge through" rather than "try and get your wheel forward". Think of trying to push forward at a crowded concert or bar. You don't extend, you just protect your area. Likewise on the bike you don't extend it (in fact you may retract it) but you really grip hard. I grip hard, my elbows are flexed but rigid, my shoulders are rigid, even if I'm pulling the bike back to clear the wheel in front of me. I can't let anything take control away from my front wheel because at that point I'm going to my ability to balance on the bike.
This is another angle of the same crash. Looks like he fixated on the rider in front and panicked. Could have saved it by leaning the bike more. Crash is at 2:38 mark.
Now I can see that if he held onto the bars hard, the front wheel wouldn't have turned like it did in the video.
Last edited by chris675D; 06-05-13 at 02:57 PM.
06-05-13, 03:39 PM
#506
Making a kilometer blurry
This is another angle of the same crash. Looks like he fixated on the rider in front and panicked. Could have saved it by leaning the bike more. Crash is at 2:38 mark.
Now I can see that if he held onto the bars hard, the front wheel wouldn't have turned like it did in the video.
Now I can see that if he held onto the bars hard, the front wheel wouldn't have turned like it did in the video.
Note that "leaning the bike more" is where internalizing countersteering can be helpful. If you quickly realize that you need to push forward harder on the right bar to lean more, it's going to be much more effective.
06-06-13, 02:02 PM
#507
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It's nice that you are grateful to your sponsor and want to give them exposure in return, but that's not my point. What I said is that no one cares. You are very fortunate: you have a sponsor that is completely insane. Completely insane because they are throwing money at you that they cannot hope to come remotely close to recouping from any exposure you might give them. Because, as I said: no one cares!
The best thing you could do for your sponsor is to tell them not to give you so much stuff. I'm not kidding. I'm not saying you should do that (and I know it would be hard for me to do it), and they're the ones making the bad decisions. I'm just saying that they're bottom line is helped more by not giving you stuff than by you putting a link on your video that no one will click (cause no one cares).
Anyway, on the racing: you're welcome.
The best thing you could do for your sponsor is to tell them not to give you so much stuff. I'm not kidding. I'm not saying you should do that (and I know it would be hard for me to do it), and they're the ones making the bad decisions. I'm just saying that they're bottom line is helped more by not giving you stuff than by you putting a link on your video that no one will click (cause no one cares).
Anyway, on the racing: you're welcome.
06-06-13, 02:52 PM
#508
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Follow up
Next installment: I have employed most of the suggestions offered by the group. In the last couple of weeks fitness has come up a bit.
Grolby will hate the music and any mention of the sponsor but hopefully will notice a change.
Unfortunately, I read CDR's latest strategy response AFTER racing and shooting this video. I can't wait to implement these suggestions. To those who will say "warm-up more and set up fewer cameras", I set the cameras and start them 30 minutes before the race and let them run until the start. The video piece is easy, all night-before setup and post-production. They are intended for a broader audience than just hard core racers.
I hope you see better sphere discipline throughout, but with a 12-15 MPH cross wind on the long sections, that "safe" place was off to the side a little bit.
ALSO, I race two races back to back.
Also, I was without a teammate and tried to get in break. You'll see what happened there. Thoughts?!
Grolby will hate the music and any mention of the sponsor but hopefully will notice a change.
Unfortunately, I read CDR's latest strategy response AFTER racing and shooting this video. I can't wait to implement these suggestions. To those who will say "warm-up more and set up fewer cameras", I set the cameras and start them 30 minutes before the race and let them run until the start. The video piece is easy, all night-before setup and post-production. They are intended for a broader audience than just hard core racers.
I hope you see better sphere discipline throughout, but with a 12-15 MPH cross wind on the long sections, that "safe" place was off to the side a little bit.
ALSO, I race two races back to back.
Also, I was without a teammate and tried to get in break. You'll see what happened there. Thoughts?!
06-06-13, 10:02 PM
#509
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Critique My Crit: Volume 2 (Video)
Next installment: I have employed most of the suggestions offered by the group. In the last couple of weeks fitness has come up a bit.
Grolby will hate the music and any mention of the sponsor but hopefully will notice a change.
Unfortunately, I read CDR's latest strategy response AFTER racing and shooting this video. I can't wait to implement these suggestions. To those who will say "warm-up more and set up fewer cameras", I set the cameras and start them 30 minutes before the race and let them run until the start. The video piece is easy, all night-before setup and post-production. They are intended for a broader audience than just hard core racers.
I hope you see better sphere discipline throughout, but with a 12-15 MPH cross wind on the long sections, that "safe" place was off to the side a little bit.
ALSO, I race two races back to back.
Also, I was without a teammate and tried to get in break. You'll see what happened there. Thoughts?!
Grolby will hate the music and any mention of the sponsor but hopefully will notice a change.
Unfortunately, I read CDR's latest strategy response AFTER racing and shooting this video. I can't wait to implement these suggestions. To those who will say "warm-up more and set up fewer cameras", I set the cameras and start them 30 minutes before the race and let them run until the start. The video piece is easy, all night-before setup and post-production. They are intended for a broader audience than just hard core racers.
I hope you see better sphere discipline throughout, but with a 12-15 MPH cross wind on the long sections, that "safe" place was off to the side a little bit.
ALSO, I race two races back to back.
Also, I was without a teammate and tried to get in break. You'll see what happened there. Thoughts?!
06-06-13, 10:04 PM
#510
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I shot this race with 6 cameras, 3 on the bike, 3 off.
Also, I was without a teammate and tried to get in break. You'll see what happened there. Thoughts?!
Also, I was without a teammate and tried to get in break. You'll see what happened there. Thoughts?!
06-07-13, 05:20 AM
#511
fuggitivo solitario
I hate to be so harsh on any bike racer, but this is just pathetic. You make a new post in the original thread, and after not having one single response, you start a new thread. The shameless self-aggrandizing at the beginning about winning your bike is completely unnecessary, and i can't help get the feeling that all the likes you got on the video are for that. While there's nothing wrong with that, per se, you shouldn't conflate that with brilliant racing and/or brilliant commentary in the video. People have an inherent conflict of interest in wanting to win stuff and don't want to douse cold water on you, and if you are fine with sycophancy, so be it.
As for the video, the only positive thing i can say is that at least you actively tried to ride closer to others, though trying is not doing, and it was glaringly obvious you left large gaps at other times.
I didn't realize that the race is a 2/3/4 race. What do you expect to glean out of it? If i were to be racing with people a few rungs stronger than I, all i can hope is to hang on for dear life. In other words, there's not gonna be any tactics involved. You are much better off racing with other cat 4's or cat 3/4's or cat 4/5's, where your physical strength may be more comparable to that of others rather than having some cat-2 drill everyone into the places.
Again, the next point goes back to the sycophant comments, but your attack was not strong despite what some of the other viewers think. Here's what actually happened: you don't know for how long you can hold an effort, so you shot off at an intensity for which you may be able to hold for 2 minutes. Meanwhile, others rightfully figured that you'll lose steam and just reeled you back. You can tell that this is the case because everyone else was still together after you were reeled in; contrast this to when the cat-2 attacked and just shattered the field.
Also, you don't ever attack with the hope that someone goes with you: you attack with the understanding that it's gonna be solitary hell, but perhaps someone else may decide to join you, but that's far from certain. If you attack at the right time in the right place, chances are, people will go with you, but that's beside the point. The real reason why no one went with you? When there are cat-2 and cat-3's in the field, no one is going to waste energy chasing a cat-4 who doesn't have a track record.
-----
Finally, people have given you loads of constructive advice in the other thread, and those are good rubrics for you to judge your efforts. Except i doubt you did much judging on your own part and just threw this on the internet because it's easier. Sitting down after a race and having to reflect about what happened and write about it requires introspection, and sometimes that introspection really jabs at our own ego. Writing down these thoughts is how most of us realize what we did right or wrong, and if we don't see it ourselves, the other posters will most likely spot it and make constructive commentaries. So spare us the videos, write an actual detailed race report, and be specific about what sort of feedback you want. None of us have boat load of time to go through a 7-minute video, and it's much easier to scan through a race report.
As for the video, the only positive thing i can say is that at least you actively tried to ride closer to others, though trying is not doing, and it was glaringly obvious you left large gaps at other times.
I didn't realize that the race is a 2/3/4 race. What do you expect to glean out of it? If i were to be racing with people a few rungs stronger than I, all i can hope is to hang on for dear life. In other words, there's not gonna be any tactics involved. You are much better off racing with other cat 4's or cat 3/4's or cat 4/5's, where your physical strength may be more comparable to that of others rather than having some cat-2 drill everyone into the places.
Again, the next point goes back to the sycophant comments, but your attack was not strong despite what some of the other viewers think. Here's what actually happened: you don't know for how long you can hold an effort, so you shot off at an intensity for which you may be able to hold for 2 minutes. Meanwhile, others rightfully figured that you'll lose steam and just reeled you back. You can tell that this is the case because everyone else was still together after you were reeled in; contrast this to when the cat-2 attacked and just shattered the field.
Also, you don't ever attack with the hope that someone goes with you: you attack with the understanding that it's gonna be solitary hell, but perhaps someone else may decide to join you, but that's far from certain. If you attack at the right time in the right place, chances are, people will go with you, but that's beside the point. The real reason why no one went with you? When there are cat-2 and cat-3's in the field, no one is going to waste energy chasing a cat-4 who doesn't have a track record.
-----
Finally, people have given you loads of constructive advice in the other thread, and those are good rubrics for you to judge your efforts. Except i doubt you did much judging on your own part and just threw this on the internet because it's easier. Sitting down after a race and having to reflect about what happened and write about it requires introspection, and sometimes that introspection really jabs at our own ego. Writing down these thoughts is how most of us realize what we did right or wrong, and if we don't see it ourselves, the other posters will most likely spot it and make constructive commentaries. So spare us the videos, write an actual detailed race report, and be specific about what sort of feedback you want. None of us have boat load of time to go through a 7-minute video, and it's much easier to scan through a race report.
06-07-13, 06:35 AM
#512
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Well, you did better. You are at least riding closer to people, but you could still get a lot closer. You were not really getting as much protection from the wind as you comments indicate.
As for no one chasing after you, I suspect that has to do with no one expecting you to actually make it. You seem to know all the riders in the field. That means they know you too and what you can and cannot do. A couple years ago, I did a race series and every week, with about 8 laps to go, one guy would attack. He'd get out about 200 meters then fade and fall back into the field. After doing this a couple times, everyone started letting him go.
As for no one chasing after you, I suspect that has to do with no one expecting you to actually make it. You seem to know all the riders in the field. That means they know you too and what you can and cannot do. A couple years ago, I did a race series and every week, with about 8 laps to go, one guy would attack. He'd get out about 200 meters then fade and fall back into the field. After doing this a couple times, everyone started letting him go.
06-07-13, 07:18 AM
#514
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I looked at your "team page", it listed you and one other guy. Your bio talked more about your videos than racing. Is your goal to get better at bike raing, or to be a popular youtube channel? Im not trying to be an ass, just wondering.
06-07-13, 07:20 AM
#515
pan y agua
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At the 5:20 point when the 2 riders go and you can't close the gap, you should have let the 3rd guy, who eventually comes around you, close the gap. Even if he couldn't close it, you could use all he had, and then use your own effort.
Instead it looks like he let you try to close it, and he comes around, and you fall back.
It's a delicate balance. If you don't close a gap immediately,it may get too big to close. But if you try to close every gap yourself, you're wasting energy, and towing everybody else up. And if you know you don't have enough, you might as well let someone else cover it, and suck off of them, because you're not going to make the move anyway if you don't.
Instead it looks like he let you try to close it, and he comes around, and you fall back.
It's a delicate balance. If you don't close a gap immediately,it may get too big to close. But if you try to close every gap yourself, you're wasting energy, and towing everybody else up. And if you know you don't have enough, you might as well let someone else cover it, and suck off of them, because you're not going to make the move anyway if you don't.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
06-07-13, 07:24 AM
#516
soon to be gsteinc...
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Bwahahahahahahahahaha
Chappy used big words so I couldn't read his post...
06-07-13, 10:53 AM
#519
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No, you don't. You're just an ass, a bully, and a troll. Tens of thousands of your posts support that assertion.
Don't have a choice. You race the races available.
You also attack to try and get a break going. As pointed out by someone responding to the last video, that is one of ways to have success as a rider without a big team.
Escappist, thanks for the time you've spent responding, but personal attacks sap any credibility I might have given you. Clearly you don't get or appreciate the video format with commentary, introduction, etc. So, don't waste your time commenting again. If you're a successful racer, it's lost in your anger and vitriol.
I didn't realize that the race is a 2/3/4 race. What do you expect to glean out of it? If i were to be racing with people a few rungs stronger than I, all i can hope is to hang on for dear life. In other words, there's not gonna be any tactics involved. You are much better off racing with other cat 4's or cat 3/4's or cat 4/5's, where your physical strength may be more comparable to that of others rather than having some cat-2 drill everyone into the places.
Escappist, thanks for the time you've spent responding, but personal attacks sap any credibility I might have given you. Clearly you don't get or appreciate the video format with commentary, introduction, etc. So, don't waste your time commenting again. If you're a successful racer, it's lost in your anger and vitriol.
06-07-13, 10:54 AM
#520
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It's a delicate balance. If you don't close a gap immediately,it may get too big to close. But if you try to close every gap yourself, you're wasting energy, and towing everybody else up. And if you know you don't have enough, you might as well let someone else cover it, and suck off of them, because you're not going to make the move anyway if you don't.
06-07-13, 10:58 AM
#521
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You're not being an ass, it's an acceptable question.
06-07-13, 11:08 AM
#522
out walking the earth
speaking from experience that's not absolutely true. I'm not going alone. I may attack, but unless someone joins me I'm sitting up and waiting to go again. mainly because if I'm attacking I think there's someone who could beat me in a sprint, but I sure as hell am not going to try a long solo. there's really no upside for me. that said I've stayed away inside of three miles to go, but longer than that I like the chances of me winning in any variety of other situations better.
06-07-13, 11:15 AM
#523
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Francisco, CA
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As far as people commenting on your videos, I, personally, would put more stock in the feedback you get from seasoned racers in this forum, than random maybe-racers on YouTube. That's just me, though. You openly ask for "criticism" but when you get it, you're defensive and don't seem to take any of it to heart, which is a shame as there was tons of great suggestions thrown out.
06-07-13, 11:28 AM
#524
Making a kilometer blurry
06-07-13, 11:36 AM
#525
Senior Member
I don't believe he is any of those things. He is giving his feedback (as many others have). Easy on the name calling.
As far as people commenting on your videos, I, personally, would put more stock in the feedback you get from seasoned racers in this forum, than random maybe-racers on YouTube. That's just me, though. You openly ask for "criticism" but when you get it, you're defensive and don't seem to take any of it to heart, which is a shame as there was tons of great suggestions thrown out.
As far as people commenting on your videos, I, personally, would put more stock in the feedback you get from seasoned racers in this forum, than random maybe-racers on YouTube. That's just me, though. You openly ask for "criticism" but when you get it, you're defensive and don't seem to take any of it to heart, which is a shame as there was tons of great suggestions thrown out.