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To pull or not?? Getting mixed advice.

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To pull or not?? Getting mixed advice.

Old 07-06-11, 11:25 AM
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cyclisteaux
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To pull or not?? Getting mixed advice.

As a former triathlete, on-the-bike race strategy is almost opposite of bike racing. In triathlons, it is an all out, no drafting solo effort.

In the few crits and road races that I've done, a successful race strategy includes a lot of drafting. I have taken turns pulling in these races and have placed in the top 3 (in a few), however, my teammates advise that if I didn't pull, I could have won or placed higher.

I'm confused. They are advising that I draft 100% in a race and not pull. Yet, these same teammates will complain when others don't pull. I'm all for winning, however, the few occasions where I could've held back and draft, my adrenaline kicked in and I would pull since nobody else would.

Also, doesn't good sportsmanship dictate that if one is benefiting behind the draft of others, that he also contribute to the pack?
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Old 07-06-11, 11:37 AM
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It depends. If you are in a break and want it to succeed, then you work enough to encourage the other riders to work with you.

If you are in the pack there is no purpose to pulling the pack around unless you are pulling it up to the break because you have a teamate in the pack who is a good sprinter and you want to keep things together (or some other reason why its good for your team if the break fails).

Good sportsmanship means riding predictably and safely, not yelling at people, and sprinting in a straight line. There's no requirement to pull when it's not in your or your teams interest.
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Old 07-06-11, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclisteaux View Post
As a former triathlete, on-the-bike race strategy is almost opposite of bike racing. In triathlons, it is an all out, no drafting solo effort.

In the few crits and road races that I've done, a successful race strategy includes a lot of drafting. I have taken turns pulling in these races and have placed in the top 3 (in a few), however, my teammates advise that if I didn't pull, I could have won or placed higher.

I'm confused. They are advising that I draft 100% in a race and not pull. Yet, these same teammates will complain when others don't pull. I'm all for winning, however, the few occasions where I could've held back and draft, my adrenaline kicked in and I would pull since nobody else would.

Also, doesn't good sportsmanship dictate that if one is benefiting behind the draft of others, that he also contribute to the pack?
you answered your own question right there. This is a chess match on wheels, not just a competition of who's the strongest.

you make others pull for you and conserve energy. Never sit at the front for long if the bunch is together (unless you are leading out a teammate), though do sit near the front so you can react (though Cat 4/5 really don't attack). However, if you are in a break, you pull through (everyone does 10-15" at the front); if you don't, then it's an issue of sportsmanship and others may accelerate to drop you.

Edit: got ninja'ed by Eric.
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Old 07-06-11, 11:46 AM
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Only pull the pack around if your interests are best served by pulling the pack around. Now, your interests might actually involve pulling people around. If you have a teammate you are trying to support, then that's a reason for pulling the pack around, if your teammate is benefited by that action (say, a break is up the road and you are trying to set your teammate up for the win). If you are in a break, then you contribute your strength to try to keep the break away.

And it might even be in your best interest to work with others just to show your good faith. Racers on different teams might band together to work to bring back a break that threatens the sprint finish, for example. As long as everyone who is a player in the final sprint is doing their fair share, then it works. When one person starts not cooperating, then it breaks down.

Oftentimes, it is definitely not in your best interests to pull the pack around. If you have no teammates, for instance, it is hard to argue that you should ever be on the front. Sit in or attack, but don't pull.

You can make the argument that this is why bike racing is so much more interesting than triathlons or marathons. There is a whole group social dynamic at play that you don't see in race-against-yourself type races. Part of learning to bike race is learning how to take advantage of the social dynamic to win a race. This might take years to master.
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Old 07-06-11, 12:12 PM
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From other teams in the race: Please continue to pull us around while we sit in and rest. When you're finally tired we'll attack.
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Old 07-06-11, 12:12 PM
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as someone who used to race Tris - I can understand the confusion you've got from mixed messages right now.

Brian completely nails it - this isn't a powerlifting/wattage battle... this is a strategic sport.
Work when it is in your best interests to do so, attack when it is in your best interests to do so, sit in when it is in your best interests to do so... but you need to know when & where each of those are.

I raced a crit last weekend - for the sake of this thread, we'll consider "my team's best interests" = "my best interests"
First 10', I sat in, didn't do a darn thing... best interests, check

Next 3 minutes, the field get's bunchy, my team's sprinter asks me to string things out since the pack is getting bunched & twitchy.... I go to the front, and I take some hard pulls. The field strings out and is much safer. I'm not wasting energy, this is the plan to get a variety of teams and people working at the front. best interests, check

No other teams are working... and I'm not going to pull this train all night long. My best interests are no longer met by taking harder pulls than everyone else, I'm wasting energy now, since no one else is willing to share the work. The previous plan to get them to share didn't work, so I change tactics to make them work.... I attack. I go off the front hard & fast, get a big gap, ... I'm not working much harder than I previously was, but now the other teams have to chase and thus they are working. best interests, check

Skip along to later in the race... we've got 15' to go before we go to lap count, the primes are all gone, any attack that happens now is an attack to win the race - these matter to us, as the team with the best sprinter. I'm sitting in as a variety of teams pull the pack along. I'm not doing any work, just getting on the wheels of guys that look like they want to attack/surf up hard/etc. If they attack I'll be there to sit on them, pull them back, etc. I'm resting, but very tuned in to the race. best interests, check

6 laps to go - a move of three guys gets away. I don't know them, they are all from out of the area, wearing skinsuits, low positions on the bike... hammering in a line... this could be the race. I turn on the afterburners, go straight to the front of the pack, and go into pursuit mode for 1.5 laps and pull them in. best interests, check

4.5 laps to go, no sense in sitting on the front at this point - I've got 2 laps to rest as much as possible, so I shuffle back into 10th wheel and do as little as possible. best interests, check

2 laps to go, time to do the last bit of work my legs have in them - I move up, see my sprinter is well placed on another fast guy's wheel - my last job is going to be to string this race out & drop the boys off in corner 3. I move up, go into pursuit mode again w/ two guys from other teams, the crit has "lead-out by committee" today, and hammer until my legs blow up at T3. best interests, check

so, there it is - depending on the context, what you should do will vary dramatically.
Some laps my job was to be at anaerobic capacity, sometimes my best interests were to coast as much as possible. That's the joy of bike racing over tri's for me... always gotta be thinking
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Old 07-06-11, 12:39 PM
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The thing about pulling is that it doesn't always need to be an all out effort.

If you find yourself on the front and don't want to be working hard, then slow down, everyone will figure out what to do (come around). And if they don't come around, who cares, you're resting anyway, enjoy.

If you find that you can't pull a lap or two and still go for the win, train more. Or train better. It shouldn't be an either-or kind of thing in my book.
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Old 07-06-11, 12:43 PM
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That was excellent Hida.
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Old 07-06-11, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nate552 View Post
That was excellent Hida.

*blush*
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Old 07-06-11, 12:54 PM
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+1 Hida, well written!!! I may have to borrow to teach any new guys on my collegiate team next year
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Old 07-06-11, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclisteaux View Post
[...]my teammates advise that if I didn't pull, I could have won or placed higher.
This is just as likely wrong as it is right. It's like saying that if you waited another 10m to sprint you'd have won. Sure, or you'd have been 4th instead of 3rd.


Originally Posted by cyclisteaux View Post
I'm confused. They are advising that I draft 100% in a race and not pull. Yet, these same teammates will complain when others don't pull. I'm all for winning, however, the few occasions where I could've held back and draft, my adrenaline kicked in and I would pull since nobody else would.
I'll assume you are still a cat 5. So let me be the first to say that EVERYONE in the 5s, and 4s, and 3s (and higher) *****es if other's won't "work". This is often another way of saying "if he had worked harder I would have won/caught the break/sprinted/whatever". This is generally followed by one of the phrases "plus I've been sick", "I'm coming off a rest week", "I'm coming off a big training block", "this isn't a goal event", or, my favorite, "I'm just out here to have fun".

Don't take it personally. In fact, if you get an adrenaline rush because others won't pull, you have a future in racing. But next time, don't just go to the front and pull go OFF the front and drop them like the TT machine you are.
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Old 07-06-11, 01:42 PM
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I don't usually race with teammates so here is what goes through my head during a race:

Scenario 1: Someone is off the front
If it's one person I'll let another team do the work to bring them back. If 2/3 of the teams are represented I'll bridge

Scenario 2: Everything is together
Stay in the Top 5-10% of the riders, but don't do any work. If I find myself at the front attack.

If it's the last few laps and everything is together I'll mark the sprinters and get on their wheel. I've kind of grown to like racing alone because I only have to look out for me. Sometimes I think it would be nice to have someone to help me or someone to work for, but being by myself gives me freedom to do what I want, which has helped me do pretty well so far this year.
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Old 07-06-11, 02:02 PM
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If you take a turn or two at the front in most cases it's not going to kill you or keep you from winning. You don't have to pull the field around for a lap at 30 MPH either. Totally sitting in is for the weak, and you're obviously strong for your category. Keep doing what you're doing.

This sport is full of people never see the pointy end of the stick or the podium but know everything about how you should race.
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Old 07-06-11, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
If you take a turn or two at the front in most cases it's not going to kill you or keep you from winning. You don't have to pull the field around for a lap at 30 MPH either. Totally sitting in is for the weak, and you're obviously strong for your category. Keep doing what you're doing.

This sport is full of people never see the pointy end of the stick or the podium but know everything about how you should race.
Now, if you want the real truth, let me know; I know everything.
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Old 07-06-11, 02:39 PM
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+1 to the advice above. One more piece of advice: follow the race report thread. There's good detail in there.
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Old 07-06-11, 02:39 PM
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gone

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Old 07-06-11, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by veloboy971 View Post
+1 Hida, well written!!! I may have to borrow to teach any new guys on my collegiate team next year
So, you were surfing BF after handing in your exam and waiting for the Thermo class!

A good choice for noob reading, but also make them read botto's "new racer tips" first. Once they get the feel of it they must also read "The Rider". Don't ask for my copy. I "own" many, but they are all still out on "loan" if you know what I mean. (I did get one copy back from a local racer and former BF Racing Forums poster along with a LARGE bottle of Duvel. So Mike Arena, wherever you are, cheers and no bad feelings.) I'll probably buy yet another copy, but no longer lend it out.
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Old 07-06-11, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post

I turn on the afterburners, go straight to the front of the pack, and go into pursuit mode for 1.5 laps and pull them in. best interests, check
thanks for taking the time to write this up. i appreciated reading it and gained some insight.

could i ask one clarifying question?

in this part of the race, did you bridge to the attack group and then try to slow them down, or are you saying you worked hard at the front of the main group to pull that group up to the attackers? i suspect the latter.

thanks!
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Old 07-06-11, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
i suspect the latter.
The latter hurts like hell.

The former hurts like HELL ON WHEELS.

Both can be effective, but which one is better team-wise depends on the make-up of the break and what your particular skills happen to be.

The former is usually much better for your own selfish interests, but that shouldn't be what this is all about. This is a team sport.
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Old 07-06-11, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
thanks for taking the time to write this up. i appreciated reading it and gained some insight.

in this part of the race, did you bridge to the attack group and then try to slow them down, or are you saying you worked hard at the front of the main group to pull that group up to the attackers? i suspect the latter.
Glad I could be of some service - this forum (well, mostly the race reports and the winter "what if" threads) taught me most of what I know about smart, aggressive bike racing.
At the end of the race, given that I didn't know the guys in the break, I pulled the field up to them. I could have gone across, but the finish wasn't for me, and my teammate is on a huge winning tear right now... so I pulled the field up to them so as to make it a pack finish.

A very reasonable question to ask, because that would have been a fantastic opportunity to go across, and then out-sprint them if the finish had been my sort of thing.

Originally Posted by mollusk View Post
The latter hurts like hell.

The former hurts like HELL ON WHEELS.

Both can be effective, but which one is better team-wise depends on the make-up of the break and what your particular skills happen to be.
The former is usually much better for your own selfish interests, but that shouldn't be what this is all about. This is a team sport.
yes, and yes. (bolding for +1 emphasis)
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Old 07-06-11, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Nate552 View Post
That was excellent Hida.
+3 or whatever.

If you're racing solo, you can insert solo rider thoughts instead of working for sprinter or whatever. So maybe sitting in that first bit, then sitting in when a few guys pulls, then going after the guy that attacks, then trying to go off the front, then staying top 10 when it comes together, etc.

You can go and do frivolous things if you want. There's no rule against racing stupid. Last night I shelled myself in about 4 laps of racing; I had no excuse except I raced stupid (for the record I attacked at the gun and time trialed until I got caught, then I got dropped). Frivolous. But it was kind of fun.

Stupid doesn't necessarily get results though. Balance what you want to accomplish.
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Old 07-07-11, 06:32 AM
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Really nice play by play, Hida. Really nice.

I rarely have teammates in a race. Solo tactics are different than team tactics to a degree. Most of the time, I better have a d*mn good reason to be at the front pulling the field.
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Old 07-07-11, 07:27 AM
  #23  
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I've spent 3 yrs unlearning the impulse to ride at the front, some of which is due to a lack of comfort riding in the pack. Over my last 3 races (same course, same average speed), my average watts have gone down and my placings have gone up. What has also changed is that variability has increased - my power spikes are taller and my time spent in low wattage recovery /coasting has lengthened.

If I was strong enough to lead the race around and still place well, I would at least try to do it in a break, hopefully with 3 other guys who will share the load. Otherwise, my current rule is working is for chumps. Now this is all based on Cat 5 racing, so the dynamics may shift when you get higher up, and certainly will as you mix in team tactics, as noted by several of the posts above.
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Old 07-07-11, 04:32 PM
  #24  
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in my experience, if you're strong enough to ride at the front for most of the race and still get 3rd, you're strong enough to go off and win it solo. Learn how to attack effectively (a different thread perhaps) and just leave everyone else behind.

This won't work when you reach a level where others are as fit or fitter than you. That's when a lot of advice from this thread will start to matter. But for now, you might as well win if you're capable of it.
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Old 07-07-11, 04:44 PM
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The hardest thing for tri-guys to do (in my experience) is to have the high-gear speed to get away from the pack.
Once clear of the field, yeah, TTing for 30 miles may not be a big deal... but the anaerobic "jump" or "attack" to get away from the pack is tough.
Some simply don't have that gear, others blow up upon hitting that massive effort (long-course folks especially)...

TTing away is certainly possible, but Cat4/5 folks especially are likely to chase everything that tries to go away. The OP may have to be able to ride a red-lined "attack" pace for a good little while until he is clear of the field.

but in general terms, I'm with BA, if you are in fact on the front for most of the race & place 3rd - you should be able to win.
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