jameskpolk

The "playing dirty" thread is getting a bit contentious, so I decided to create a new thread for my related question:

What's the best way to maintain position when someone else is trying to physically move me?

I was taken off my line last night in a move that seemed pretty unnecessary to me - a hip check by a guy who had just come off a pull and apparently wanted to slot back into the pace line in my spot. I leaned into him to avoid a scenic detour into the woods, but it was touch-and-go for a moment, and I'd like to be better prepared for the next time that it happens. My plan is to grab a buddy and practice trying to knock each other over, which I've done before, and found useful. But, while I'm practicing, is there any particular technique to employ? The cycling equivalent of getting a broad stance and lowering one's center of gravity?

To put things in perspective, I'm still awfully new at this racing thing, and only slightly less new at riding in a pack. I just got my cat4 upgrade a few days ago, so please assume that I'm entirely ignorant.

cheers

rbart4506

yea, I'm interested in this too....

Being a bit of a lightweight, at 135lbs, I tend to get pushed around a bit in the pack....

waterrockets 

Honestly, it's easier for me to deal with it before my spot looks like a good one. If someone comes into you with inertia, you may not be able to do anything. If you're stable, you can always countersteer into them a bit to see if you can stop their progress and hold your spot. Make sure contact is with your forearms, and not any bike parts (one good reason to be in your drops when you sense this activity approaching).

To prevent people from wanting the spot, I often half draft and overlap by a full wheel or a half bike length. If you get your hands close to your draft's hip, your front wheel is protected again, and you don't have to worry about the overlap. The draft is well over 50% if you're on the downwind side when doing this, and they can't move you off the wheel because the guy is clearly in your way. It's not like they can force you to back up and then go around.

I'll slide out into this position when I sense that people are starting to want my spot, assuming I want to keep it. Most of the time I just let riders in, but there are certainly times when that's not the case.

Nate552

https://youtu.be/_L8VLgLX7AM Just Kidding. Don't head butt people.

Racer Ex 

1) Anticipate: don't wait until you're being leaned on to start taking action.
2) Be in the drops. You have the most security/leverage/low CG in that position.
3) Elbow out: practice bumping elbows...most guys will shy off at first contact
4) Bias your upper body towards the rider about to make contact. That change in CG makes it much harder for you to be moved
5) And this might be one of the few times I'd say being vocal might have some effect when contact is actually being made
6) If you know contact is coming steer slightly in that direction
7) Rainbow or Stars and Stripes on the sleeves and collars.

All of this stuff is going to require practice except #7.

But also be aware of what's going on on the other side of the guy making contact, like people being forced onto the inside line it's not always a results of aggressive riding. There might be a giant man eating pothole coming up or a car coming down the yellow line.

jfmckenna

At about 6'4" 200 lbs I often don't have this problem

But, having said that, first of all if the guy did it on purpose then he should be DQ'd. Stuff happens and my general rule of thumb is to try an avoid it before it does so if some one's bars are in front of yours then they own the spot, just let them have it.

currand

Actually that's more a drawback than a benefit. If my elbows or hips are under yours I'll like win because of how you have to adjust to lean into me.

#2 and #3 in Racer Ex's post are spot on. OK, all of them are, but those are key. I'd also like to add (which might be what #4 in his post meant) that if the contact gets a little more forceful, lean your bike away from the ride. Not a crazy amount, but something like what you would do if you were riding along and had to move your bars away from a post or something.

Like this, but not so drastic:

https://youtu.be/-NzoMlH_5OM Practicing with a friend is a great way to work on this. Not putting yourself in the situation is even better!

Creakyknees

I prefer to absorb contact with my torso or shoulders instead of arms / forearms. The closer the contact is to my hands, the more dangerous because a bump to the hands is a steering input, causing wobbles. A bump to my shoulder or hip is easy to absorb.

For smaller guys: if you get your shoulder underneath the bigger guy's torso, you can lift and steer him away from you.

And yes, practice a lot with a buddy on a soccer field, try all sorts of contact points, velocities and durations.

jameskpolk

I think this is probably what I need to work on most. This was my first go in the local Tue Night Worlds, so I knew it was going to be a bit more aggressive than the group rides that I'm typically on, and I was trying to keep my situational awareness up, but this guy took me completely by surprise. He didn't make his move until he had drifted almost all the way back to completely even with me. If there was any indication that he was about to come over, I missed it entirely. No hand gesture, no pot hole or car that he had to dodge, nothing. Doubly frustrating, as I would have happily given him the spot, as I was trying to minimize my pulls.

The rest of the ride was fine, definitely smoother than other group rides I've been on. I talked about it with the guy who brought me, and he didn't know the rider, but had independently identified him as a dick for other moves over the course of the ride. Which salved my ego, but wouldn't have helped my bruises much if I'd gone down, so thank you both for the tips. I'm especially going to work on getting that Rainbow jersey.

@jfmckenna - I run about 4" and 60lb smaller, which might make me a little less intimidating. I appreciate your comment about letting folks have a spot. While I don't think I'm shy about contact, I'm also in this for the fun, and I'm going to give a spot to anybody who seems dead set on having it. I think I care about my melon a bit more than some of the younger guys.

@Nate - but I've been practicing!

Psimet2001 

I don't have to "take" a lot of spots, but if I do I take them "gently". As for defending my position - never really been an issue. I am fat so when there is contact - "I win".

+100 for being in the drops. When I feel it coming it I extend my elbow/forearm to make contact there first. If it gets heavy I have been known to make shoulder contact and lean. Mainly leaning against to keep the bike upright. Naturally my head goes that direction to....so maybe I do head butt but I don't think I do....

Creakyknees

I took my hands off the bars last night and gently pushed on a guy's hip.

Weeknight crit, about mid-race, small pack, somebody had attacked and us weaker riders were tailgunning. We were in a crosswind section, single file against the curb, and one guy was getting popped. He (correctly) pulled out to the left a bit, leaving room for others to pass him downwind / sheltered. But, being on the limit, he was wobbling a bit. So as I come past between him and the curb, he's drifting a bit too close for my comfort so I put a gentle hand on his hip and steered him a few inches to the clear side.

No words exchanged, everybody's fine.

Psimet2001 

+1

hammy56

I suppose from racing mc's for many yrs, a little bumping never bothered me. Id done it a few times at 100+ mph...a little rubbing on a bicycle just really doesnt seem like a big deal. Having said that I guess if I were bothered by it I simply wouldnt race. I didnt see an issue with the video in the other thread.

Edit after Creaky's post: any time Ive been in a race where a guy was continuously getting close to me Ive put a hand on a hip. Not a push, just a touch... No ones ever seemed to be bothered by it.

waterrockets 

Just wondering if anyone else handles it this way (overlapping downwind). I don't see it a whole lot.

miwoodar

I'm still pretty new to this sport and threads like this have been really helpful to me. The notes above are great. The one about making a spot look unavailable is my usual approach. REx's notes are right on as well.

One thing that I've noticed is people don't want confrontation. It is really surprising how many folks will immediately abandon a great spot if someone starts to come in. It might take less contact than you realize to tell him that the spot is yours.

For example - I had a situation last weekend where I unexpectedly took a spot from a guy. I was ~20 riders back with half a lap to go when I moved up along a single file field and pulled in tight to parallel the third rider. I anticipated being hung out to dry but the guy immediately moved off the line and let me into the queue...15 seconds from the sprint this guy gave up the most coveted spot in the entire race at the best possible moment. I wish I had noticed who it was as I felt like I owed him money afterwards.

miwoodar

I don't usually like to overlap but I find that if I move a foot left/right in the direction of the guy who looks like he wants to come in the spot will appear less desireable....he has to move you further than if you are on the other side of the wheel in front.

carpediemracing 

I find that defending a position is next to impossible. Taking a wheel is pretty straightforward. Both situations assume no contact at all. With contact it's even more skewed towards the offense. The key is the wind - you can defend if you're willing to see wind. If you're not, then you can't defend.

This is one of the reasons why I wait to move up - once I'm up there it's very difficult to safely defend position without going into the wind. Since wind kills me, this means I can't defend in a safe way. So I wait until it's very late so I have less defending to do.

A good rider, pro at the time, asked me to sweep his wheel so he could attack. He'd asked someone else to do so but the other guy tried for a few laps and couldn't clear it. I cleared the wheel in about 50 meters of riding, maybe a couple seconds (the guy on his wheel was a Cat 1). (For those of you who know Bethel, he asked me on the backstretch just before the hill. I cleared his wheel before we got to the marshal at the bottom of the hill).

I knew I'd be in for a battle after that because, like I said, defending a wheel is next to impossible. I fended up the Cat 1's extremely concerted efforts to get back on the pro's wheel for about 30-45 seconds. We had no contact at all but it was very aggressive riding by both parties. Finally the Cat 1 sprinted into a driveway entrance, one about 20 feet wide with curbs. He was absolutely committed in passing me but really had only room to pull even with me before he'd have to bunny hop the curb and/or crash. (for Bethel racers, I'm talking about the driveway after the first turn - he wanted to use that as his passing lane.)

Since I didn't want him to crash, I moved over and let him in. He narrowly avoided the curb, got back on the pro's wheel.

Then I took him off the wheel again, this time waiting for favorable wind, so maybe 20 seconds of sitting on his wheel, then moving up and taking back the pro's wheel (for Bethel racers, this was Turn 2). I managed to defend this for another 300-400 meters but I was approaching my limits physiologically. The pro finally attacked as we headed up the hill, with me still defending his wheel. The Cat 1 rode left around me (i.e. into the wind), cut across to go inside the next 3-4 guys, had to stop pedaling momentarily as his tires were rubbing curb, then recovered and went rocketing up the road. It was extremely risky, in a Cat 3 race I think there'd have been a crash, but the 3-4 guys stayed upright, albeit with surprised looks on their faces.

At that point I was exploded plus I realized that the Cat 1 really, really wanted to win, more so than the pro. The Cat 1 bridged to the pro a half lap later, neutralizing the attack. Ultimately the Cat 1 won the race.

The best defense for holding a key position is all out speed. When Mike McCarthy averaged 42 mph in the last lap of a crit leading out 5 of his teammates, the "best" sprinter of the field, Gaggioli, used up his sprint moving from 7th to 3rd. He couldn't improve on that by the finish.

For field riding defending position, it's a bit trickier because it's possible. You need to set up a zone defense if you will. If I'm on the right side of the field and there's a guy drifting back and I don't want him in front of me, I'd want to move out a bit to the right. I take the controlling ground, the high ground if you will. It's like chess, you want to control the center 4 squares if possible, then you can dictate what happens.

With the zone thing you make it easier to slot in behind than in front. If I'm overlapped wheels to the inside then I've lost the position because I'm controlling the wrong side of the wheel.

Unless it's very, very close to the end of the race, I pretty much never fight for position. There's almost never a good reason to fight for it. The only reason is if the rider trying to take your spot is a rider you don't trust to ride safely. I'll fight for position if a strong but squirrely rider is trying to move in.

Your "sphere", the area you need to protect around your bars and front wheel, determines how easy it is to get you off a wheel. With good riders, with a sphere measuring only an inch or two, it's difficult because if your sphere is larger, you'll get uncomfortable before they do. If you get within 2 inches of them, you may get nervous, but for them they're still 200% of their sphere's edge, so they feel at home and at ease. I'll regularly dive into a turn where there's a guy 1-2" off my hand and I'm okay with it. I'll need to move my head up or down to peek around their torso so I can see down the course, but it's all good.

I'm very rarely in a situation where I'm so close to riders on both sides that I have to take a hand off. Okay, I've never been in a situation like that. I've always been able to move over a bit, or forward, or back. Somewhere. Except to say hi to friends or push someone (i.e. a helpful push) or to tell someone something that needs to be discrete (hand on back keeps distance same so I can tell my leadout man that I want him to go earlier or whatever other secrets I have), I don't touch other riders with my hand. The "I'm here" touch seems unnecessary so I don't do it. I'll move forward a bit (my spot), back a bit (his spot), away from the rider (share the spot), but I don't touch. They'll have to nudge my arm before they're in my sphere.

If I can get a little forward then I'm confident that they won't close up since their sphere will be similar or larger to mine. If it's anything but the last 300 meters then I'll move back a bit. If I can move to the side and it's protected from the wind, I'll move over a bit. If it's the windward side then I won't move over, I'll do something else.

All of these reactions are semi-automatic. I could almost race with an algorithm, where given certain circumstances x y and z I'll do a b and c.

AzTallRider

The only time I've had to make contact (only done 11 crit's), I leaned into the guy with my shoulder. He wasn't trying to move me, just wasn't holding an inside line exiting a corner, and I leaned against him and kept him in his line. We were both newb's, and he was clearly surprised by the contact. He 'yelped' and drifted back.

mattm

I say pick your battles. If it's in the middle of the race, let the guy in and get on his wheel, who cares?

If it's the last 3 laps or so, different story of course.. and one option is to let him in, move up a bit, then stick your bars in front of his and slot back in..

Taking wheels is fun, some people just give them up, and I'm not even a 'big' guy.

Creakyknees

dude I ain't sharing all of my secrets with you lot.

waterrockets 

shovelhd

RacerEx hinted at it, WR described it, and CDR nailed it. I don't usually have to overlap much if at all to protect, nor do I have to move out into the wind by a foot. Of course, WR is monster sized compared to me, so he may need a foot. A few inches to the approaching rider's side is all it takes for me. If the guy bumps me, he bumps me back onto the wheel. The tricky part is when they're coming from both sides. In that case, you just have to go balls out to avoid the squeeze.

jameskpolk

Thank you all for the replies. I think I've got a reasonable sense of what to do to keep a wheel. Though I've yet to race in a cat4 field, I got the distinct impression in the last few cat5 races that my "sphere" was smaller than that of most of the other riders, and I had no problems keeping a wheel that I wanted. Or getting on one that I wanted, without (I believe) causing any trouble for others. My issue in this particular instance was more that I had no idea that I was going to need to protect my position from this guy. In retrospect, it really does seem like he just took a way-overly aggressive method to getting the wheel he wanted. Hopefully an isolated incident, but it makes sense to prepare for potential recurrences. In the future, I'll be a little more aggressive about positioning myself defensively.

@CDR - I'd just like to give you a separate mention for your annotated vids. Being able to follow your thoughts during the course of a race is incredibly helpful. So, "thanks", on behalf of all of us newbs out there.

cheers

carpediemracing 

Overly aggressive - to defend against such a rider you have to go into the wind more. Say he's coming up the right side. To hold against a normal rider you'd ride 6" to the right, maybe overlap the rider in front 2-4". This puts the right side of your body pretty far out there. It both blocks riders from moving in as well as catches a lot of wind.

To hold against a more aggressive rider, one that is edging in anyway, you have to ride virtually next to the rider in front, maybe front wheel by the cranks, so about 18-24" to the right of the rider. You catch a lot more wind but there is very little chance the rider on the right can take the wheel. They'll either have to move up (and therefore give you some shelter) or move back (in which case you drift back).

A strong aggressive rider can out bluff a weaker rider by riding in the wind until the other is forced to fold. With me I usually fold, except maybe the last 250-300m of the race. At that point I'm the aggressive one, although I still don't force it, I just ride in gaps that I see that are open. Although some riders may disagree with me, I generally ride pretty safely. For example, after this race I polled those around me and asked their opinion on my move. They universally agreed that I had taken the line safely and completely.

Thanks on the vids. I'm doing this to try and share my knowledge, to share what (to me) is almost habit. It's frustrating to see riders do unproductive things. It's worse to see riders to dangerous things. I mentioned before but I'll mention it again - I can almost race based on algorithmic calculations, with a given scenario equating to a given response, tempered by my immediate strength and short term race goals. I react virtually automatically in most "immediate" situations, like diving into a turn and having someone change their line in front of me or whatever. I hope to make the clips better both in entertainment as well as education.

bostongarden

After getting my bars hooked and brought down last season, I am very quick to get into the drops when I feel someone closing in on me from the side or the back (sometimes just the drop on the side where I sense someone); and, if I feel it necessary, I get an elbow out or (this might sound silly) just flair out some fingers (such as my pinky). As has been said, in many cases, even just the slightest contact can push some folks away -- even a pinky touch can do the trick!!