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Marion Jones / Lance Armstrong

Old 12-03-04, 06:30 AM
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Happy in Hawaii
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Is Anyone else thinking that the majority of current exceptional athletes are guilty of drug use? Tonight on 20/20 Victor Conte is telling about watching Marion Jones inject herself with growth hormone before the Sydney Olympics.He says that getting around the drug testing is easy.Never testing positive seems to be what all the dopers use as their response to questions about their performances. With all the circumstantial evidence out there on Lance how long will it be before someone appears on tv with the same type of interview?I'm afraid that when it looks too good to be true it is.

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Old 12-03-04, 08:45 AM
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tired of this conversation
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Old 12-03-04, 08:47 AM
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where have you been? the tell all book last year (released prior to the tour)
had ex team personel talking about lance doping, using makeup to coverup
injection sites.
As for the Never testing positive, well if they
never test positive we will never truely know will we?
(unless they fess up like Millar).

Marty
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Old 12-03-04, 08:49 AM
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they found eprex syringes in millars apartment. he had no other choice but to confess after that. he didnt do so from a guilty conscience
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Old 12-03-04, 09:03 AM
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I'm just wondering why the mainstream press and corporations like Trek, Nike... are still going along with supporting the myth of Lance Armstrong. Is it only because of the cancer that they think he is untouchable? Maybe Tyler will tell the truth one day.
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Old 12-03-04, 09:09 AM
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because lance sells and until he tests positive they have no reason to believe he is doping and neither do we
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Old 12-03-04, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by extomesm
because lance sells and until he tests positive they have no reason to believe he is doping and neither do we
Agreed. As much as he is tested I'd like to stick to the "innocent until proven guilty" edict. Also tired of this conversation.
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Old 12-03-04, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by extomesm
because lance sells and until he tests positive they have no reason to believe he is doping and neither do we
No. It's because we in the States don't care about cheating in the least. I submit to you Barry Bonds, and the entire MLB as exhibit A.
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Old 12-03-04, 09:30 AM
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very true statement bac, but the rules on cheating in baseball are a bit more relaxed and forgiving. however, if lance was caught cheating he would be given some form of ban and companies would be hard pressed to sell their products using a spokeperson who can't even ride anymore. his sponsorships would dry up and his career would be over. also it will be interesting to see how the fans of baseball will react to jason giambi's admitted use of steriods. i doubt they will be happy
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Old 12-03-04, 10:57 AM
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Wow, I'm tired of this too, believe it or not...


As far as baseball fans, if they continue watching after the work stoppages and the cries for more millionaires...I doubt the steroid story will have any effect...

I think its awful, espeically becuase so many kids look up to these players as role models (not that they alwasy should)
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Old 12-03-04, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by extomesm
also it will be interesting to see how the fans of baseball will react to jason giambi's admitted use of steriods. i doubt they will be happy
Wrong. In his case, very happy. A lot of A's fans like me dislike (too kind a word?) that phony and are happy to see his comeuppance. I read this morning that the Yankees might try to terminate his contract with a much smaller release payment than the $82,000,000 they owe him.
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Old 12-03-04, 11:56 AM
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I just read that Bonds has admitted to using substances, but "didn't know they were steroids" HAHAHHHAAH!!!! Hey Doc, why is my head growing 2 hat sizes larger? must be the flaxseed oil.... HAHAHAHHA!!!! What an idiot....
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Old 12-03-04, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Rodies
Agreed. As much as he is tested I'd like to stick to the "innocent until proven guilty" edict. Also tired of this conversation.
Ditto
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Old 12-03-04, 12:37 PM
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"I'm just wondering why the mainstream press and corporations like Trek, Nike... are still going along with supporting the myth of Lance Armstrong. Is it only because of the cancer that they think he is untouchable? Maybe Tyler will tell the truth one day."

What?????

Lance is the most tested rider on the planet. Its sad to see that we have lost hope in amazing people or amazing achievments. I know that this topic has been beat to death, but come on why would Lance risk everything. If he were to dope he would get caught period... And yes Tyler seems to have a few strikes against him. (I hope I am wrong) As far as Nike & Trek the ony myth that they are going along with is he is a freak... of nature. Lance is in the same class of Jordon,Ruth, etc. he is a once in a life time athlete.
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Old 12-03-04, 01:41 PM
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Old 12-03-04, 02:08 PM
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I guess we can't argue that one athlete's use of illegal perfomance enhancement harms only themselves. We now seem to assume that if anyone does well it results from something illegal. That's harmful.

And, as long as those who do use illegal methods to enhance performance escape without penalty those who try to achieve naturally are at a disadvantage. This is harmful.

Much is said about the harmful effects of too much money in politics. I believe the same dynamic is at work in sports. This too is harmful.
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Old 12-03-04, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoothie104
As far as baseball fans, if they continue watching after the work stoppages and the cries for more millionaires...I doubt the steroid story will have any effect...
You are correct. The effect will be nothing .... absolutely nothing. Teams may try to get some salary money back from these cheats if that's possible. However, that would only be done for fiscal reasons - not to punish cheating. Sponsors will not leave unless they have a fiscal reason either.

Again, we in the states have no problem with cheating in sports. It's totally acceptable. There is a reason why linemen in the NFL will average 400 pounds in another couple years, and it's not because they are eating their Wheaties!
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Old 12-03-04, 02:51 PM
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Your body......your body on roids...


...ANY QUESTIONS?
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Old 12-03-04, 03:12 PM
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Just to play advocate's devil the question would be: what effect do you expect to see when someone spends 1-2 hours a day, 5 days a week in the weight room for the last 17 years?

That said, I believe that the chances of Barry Bonds taking anything without knowing exactly what it was and what it did to be approximately zero.
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Old 12-03-04, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoothie104
I just read that Bonds has admitted to using substances, but "didn't know they were steroids" HAHAHHHAAH!!!! Hey Doc, why is my head growing 2 hat sizes larger? must be the flaxseed oil.... HAHAHAHHA!!!! What an idiot....
Actually, Bonds has already proven that that the folks who run baseball, and the people who buy tickets to see him are idiots. The text of his Grand Jury testimony reeks of his contempt for the intelligence of everyone connected to baseball, except for himself.

So, what are a "witch's brew" of THG, HGH, steroids, insulin, clomid, modafinal worth to an aging slugger?

In Bonds' prime, from age 21 to age 34, he averaged 32 home runs per year. And, through baseball history, most "sluggers" have gone downhill rapidly after about age 34.

But, since become a Balco "client" in the year 2000, from the age of 35 to age 39, Bonds has averaged 52 home runs per year, including his astounding 73 homer record in 2001.

Bonds has a "gift" as a hitter that may be unique in the history of baseball. This year, he had fewer strikeouts than homeruns. No "drug" or mixture of drugs can give a hitter Bonds' ability to consistently make solid contact with a pitch. But, his astounding increase in strength since 2000 has converted about 20 or so "long fly ball" outs into homeruns every year. And converted average length homeruns into homeruns of Ruth-like dimensions.

If Bonds develops the health problems of Giambi and Caminiti, will he think his records were worth it?

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Old 12-03-04, 03:51 PM
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Now I agree with that.... Bonds... ok you don't get like that using you bowflex in the off season. But, to keep on the subject that is why Lance has done what he has done on pure talent alone. How long did it take Tyler to test postive? It seems that he came back for tour/back problems a little to fast. He won soon after the accident & he tested positive. Has Lance ever tested positive? NO!!!!
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Old 12-03-04, 04:56 PM
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Yes, he was positive in the 1999 Tour de France. He just got a forged back dated prescription to get out of it. Get your facts straight. DON"T forget about the garbage bags of doping products that were the property of the USPS 2001 Tour team. They were investigated by the french for a long time,were totally uncooperative, and Lance refused to give a DNA sample. Since the needles were disposed of in a Sharps container (provided by the Tour organization!) they couldn't tie the products to the individual riders because they didn't have DNA.Otherwise, I think it could have been proven that Lance is using performance enhancing drugs.

Last edited by Happy in Hawaii; 12-03-04 at 04:57 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-03-04, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulBravey
Just to play advocate's devil the question would be: what effect do you expect to see when someone spends 1-2 hours a day, 5 days a week in the weight room for the last 17 years?
Would the weight room enlarge his head?

We now know 2 thing about BB. We already know that he cheats. Now, in addition to cheating, he is also a liar. Care for a trifecta, Barry?
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Old 12-03-04, 07:17 PM
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Hey Hawaii nice try. Do you think the moon landing was faked? We could,would,should all day long. You need to face the facts, Lance did not dope and your not going to get the magic news report on how he just live with it anymore.
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Old 12-03-04, 07:33 PM
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Does anyone else find this thread maddening? I swear some people just like to ***** and complain.

I don't think this discussion has anything to do with "we in the states have no problem with cheating in sports" - last time I checked Millar wasn't from the states. I think it has more to do with the presumption of innocence until proven guilty (but then again the glass is not half empty in my world, I don't see conspiracies everywhere, and I'm not so envious that I need to tear down successful people).

I could take all the roids I want and still never hit a big league fast ball. If you ask most folks who know baseball they will tell you Barry Bonds was a hall of famer before the time the steroid issue came up. I could inject EPO into my veins until they collapse and still not be in the pro peloton (or use an altitude tent and have a hemocrit level over 50 and be totally clean and still not be able to cope with the rigors of riding professionally).

Inherent abilities (and genetic abnormalities) count for something. Ulrich finished 2nd to Lance 5 times in the TDF - does that mean he's not clean because he finished on the podium? Or does it mean he is clean because he didn't win? Beloki looked horrible this year - was it because he still hadn't regained his form after crashing last year? Or was it because he couldn't use an inhalator to increase his stamina? Regardless, I haven't read about Germain or Spanish fans being amazed that sponsors backed these athletes or sports fans declaring that they must be doping because they are or were successful...

Until proven guilty, I won't begrudge Lance (or others) being successful.

Last edited by Mojo GoGo; 12-03-04 at 09:24 PM.
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