shovelhd

Agreed. I had more than on chance to try it this year and regretfully chose not to.

Hida Yanra

Payment sent.

I had been thinking about this in my mind this morning before the ride. So, naturally, I made a donation to the box-of-pain this morning at the one sprint point on the ride.
Way ahead of time, I put myself on the one wheel that would shut me down immediately, waited until she peeled off & as she was getting back into the line I strung it out.
Only one or two of the other folk on the ride knew that I was well within my distance of soloing, and only one of those was fast (crapw, if you're reading this, sorry Bombs away, in the saddle, on a rise... no big reaction.

I put the power down for a bit while the group got organized, pulled out a big gap, and it was enough to hold on with breathing room even after the hammers tried to pull it all back.

So - yeah, it's doable, even when I was no where near the strongest person on the ride... You gotta pick your spots, find the place where you you'll get at least a small bit of rope before they get serious about chasing, have the main threats be as far away as possible, and then go with no hesitation.

In further news, I now have some good working data for that time duration of "max effort"... The numbers the first few minutes were good, after that, less good, Point it, I made it on willpower - even when it wasn't any fun at all towards the end. That quote at the top - that was going through my mind... "you'll know when you can't pedal any more"

This was the second time at pretty hotly contested sprint points this year that I've pulled such a creature off - both times I succeeded when I wouldn't have last year, tactical thinking and desire are the difference makers.

rkwaki

Me likey...

brianappleby

I won a race in Las Vegas on a solo attack this year. Most of the guys in that field were from SoCal.
I really don't buy the "you can't pull that trick more than once," because it's the only trick I have, and it's worked plenty of times. 2 road races in a row in 2010. Also, the same race in subsequent years; once in 2010 as a 3, and again this year as a 1/2.
In fact, every good result I've had was from a solo or small group break. If you want to be a good road racer, train like a TTist. Of course there are other important skills, knowing when to go being one of them, but a good TT (due to a good LT) is the single most important thing you can work on.
Other chances to win involve the 1k attack and the bunch sprint, but attacking is a great way to go. And it works. In all categories. If it doesn't, you simply train harder, and try again until it does.

rkwaki

I can appreciate what you posed but I think that as a developing racer that you must understand that though it can happen the chances are not in your favor and that there is much more to road racing than being the strongest tt'er. In developing one must learn all facets of racing and not simply expext to jump off the front and stay there in a P/1 field.

jsutkeepspining

i remember you. i was the fool wear orange and blue struggling to remember what riding felt like


edit: just realized that your the guy who had a pretty decent time up old mill. Emphasis on had

topflightpro

I have a teammate who went from 5 to 2 in one season on pure power alone. It then took him four years to get the upgrade to a 1 simply because he had to learn how to race.

wanders

Sounds like truckin.

merlinextraligh

I think there's your problem. If you're getting dropped on climbs, I think it's unlikely you've got the power to just motor off from the front of the field.

How about trying to get your w/kg to the point you can attack on a big climb, get away by yourself or with a small group and then try to win from that group?

Sounds like you need to increase your overall fitness, most specifically w/kg at FTP.

Fat Boy

Eventually, this will probably happen. Until then, if you're gonna be dumb, ya better be tough.

brianappleby

That. Increasing FTPower = training like a time trialist. Increasing w/kg @FTP is just that plus the fun of always being hungry.

No matter what you do, chances of winning are slim. For some people, sprinting just isn't their thing. Personally, I think going off the front is more fun, and more admirable than winning a field sprint. I'd rather see Cancellarra/Gilbert/Devolder off the front than Cavendish/Farrar in the last 20m. Plus, you it's a lot safer being off the front and you don't have to put yourself at risk for a chance at the W.

P12 races are won by breaks all the time. Olheiser won the Hood River crit by soloing OTF for like an hour. Many of the P12 races I've been in were won by breaks. Occasionally I was in them. I don't see how winning in breaks as a 4 or 3 suddenly becomes impossible once you upgrade. Everything is harder when you upgrade, but you still need to play the cards you have...

MDcatV

nonsense. getting away in a cat 4 race is possible but doesnt happen much because no one knows how to race and everyone thinks they're a field sprinter. those that dont think they're field sprinters think that no one can get away in a cat 4 race so i wont try.

MDcatV

you should reassess what you've learned. i've watched several folks do it around here since the early 2000s. it only works once if you dont have the motor and get lucky.

echappist

[217]

He really doesn't do that often these days, mostly because he realized that sitting in until 2k to go and launching will net him more wins than attacking from 60km out will. His solo victory in the 2008 Omloop Het Volk was impressive, but those types of stuff usually ended up being suicidal.

He's gotten a lot smarter the past few years and have the palamares to show for it. In that sense, he may not be too different from a sprinter, though he doesn't need a train and usually sprints against ten people as opposed to participating in a bunch sprint.

That said, he does get into small groups with good consistency, and when he does something like what he did in the rain soaked 2010 edition of Giro di Lombardia, how can you not root for him

[/217]
is this someone who might be leading a ride?

Jancouver

Possible huh? Yes, you are right, it is possible. As every exception to the rule winning a Cat 4 crit in SoCal by TT away is possible. After all, winning a lottery is also possible. You just have to buy a ticket right? There is the Ontario crit in mid January and I'm sure that we will see local Cat 4 Cancellara to take the field by surprise.

MDcatV

you can be coy all you want. i was a 4 at one time and know that breakaways are typically not successful, but the odds are much more favorable than the lottery. frankly, most of the time there are no breakaways in cat 4 because the racers race like *******. i mentor juniors and lower cat riders informally and my advice is always the same. the only things you should ever be doing in a race are 1) attacking; 2) planning your next attack. anything else, especially at the developmental categories of racing, and you're just along for the ride. be bold, and be aggressive, it just might work.

When I was a 4, the mentor for our team always wanted everyone to race reactively and patiently. that's fine, and I did. but in hindsight, I respectively disagree with his take on things.

echappist

MDCatV, what do you find are good ways to draw people out with you to get a break going?

Alternatively, what's a good way to latch on to the break if you are in the middle of the pack and someone attacks?

agoodale

It all depends on what you are trying to learn in cat 4s:

A) If you're trying to learn about your own abilities & how the field will react to them then attacking constantly is good advice. Do it 30 times & maybe you'll get lucky. Or you'll find out that you're one of the truly gifted and be able to hold on for the win. Either way, 99% of the attacks will bear no fruit so you have to hold something back for the inevitable field sprint (if you want to upgrade on points or top 10s). That then begs the question: Are you really attacking if you're holding something back.

B) If you're aware of your current physical limitations then what you are trying to learn is how to use them best. That means you're learning how to read the race, maneuver through the pack, and then attack when it will bear the most fruit for you. For most people that point is the field sprint. It only takes a few races to see that in cat 4 (at least here in SoCal) most attacks are reeled in quickly for many reasons: lack of teamwork to control the field, stupidity, scores of riders just as strong or stronger than the attacker, poor attack timing, etc...So if you want to upgrade on points or top 10s you have to surf the surges and position yourself well for the last few turns before the field sprint.

The skills you learn from A & B are both valuable. If Jancouver has concluded that method A won't work for him then there is nothing wrong with him going through cat 4s using method B.

Personally I think cat 4s here are just over sized cat 5 fields. Cat 4 fields can range from 60 to 110+ riders. It's a total clusterf*ck. I recommend to teammates to get out of cat 4s using any means necessary (points, 10 top 10s, or 20 top 20s). The real racing starts in cat 3.

kensuf

Shoot, this can be easy. Ask a few guys that you know are like minded individuals. Option two is just roll off the front on your own, if you're out there long enough, someone may come to join the party.

Jancouver

I never meant to argue with anyone here. I just made a statement that it is practically impossible to TT away in any flat race especially crit in SoCal. I do agree that being aggressive is a good way of learning and racing and you have to be fearless risk taker. For example last year Dana Point GP had 150 cat 4 field. About half the field crashed out. There is no way you will TT away during that race. It was my 3rd race that day and a back to back race with 35+ 3/4 that I was targeting. Unfortunately being well positioned going into the last lap a crash in front of me involving one of the CalPool guys ruined my chances and when I arrived at the Cat 4 start line after a cool down lap there was already 150 guys waiting. No way you pass 150 people in 30min on a technical course full of crashes.

BTW I can upgrade to Cat 3 anytime based on my pack finish results but decided to do one more reason as Cat 4 anyway

agoodale

That was me! I typically skip 30+ & 35+ 3/4 races but the team decided we could probably win this one and I agreed. I had our sprinter on my wheel & another teammate also in the top ten. As you know we had great position heading into that last lap. Going through those last turns the two guys ahead of me bumped and one panicked and hit the brakes. His rear end slid out and he dumped his bike right in front of me. I had no escape route and ended up going over the bars and into the safety netting.

As I mentioned in the other post I recommend you upgrade. Cat 3s is harder but more fun. Plus you start to see some real teamwork which makes the racing more interesting.

mattm

There is also something in between TTing for the win, and field sprints - it's called a last lap attack. (for a crit anyway - in a rr maybe a 1-2k attack)

A last lap attack worked twice for me this year in the 3's - the other win was a normal field sprint.

My point is that it's not all black and white..

shovelhd

It's never black and white.

echappist

O'RLY?

mike868y

yeah there appears to be some brown on the lower left.