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anyone run for cross training?

Old 01-09-12, 09:52 AM
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rotti
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anyone run for cross training?

Do you think running hurts your cycling in any way? I'm not talking about run training per say, just 3-4 times per week, 4-6 miles each time. I ran 6 miles at 9 min. pace yesterday, which is a very slow and easy pace for me, and ended up burning 1,000 calories. I thought since I'm battling bodyweight all the time, what an easy way to burn calories. Anyone else run, especially in the winter. Although this winter has been great for riding, it won't be long until the roads are snow covered.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:01 AM
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Running causes more injuries than it usually prevents by cross training. The best way to get faster to ride is to ride more.

And I consider 1,000 kj/calories burned a normal cycling day. So easy to burn 3,000-5,000 kj on long rides on the weekend on the bike. So much more pain involved in trying to burn those calories by running.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:07 AM
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I started running in the fall and really enjoyed it, then I hit my shin at the gym but kept on running. I believe I have a crack in my shin and will be seeing my ortho to rule any damage out.
I am a big believer in cross training as I believe there are both mental and physical benefits though I do wonder if running does more harm than good.
As we know I battle weight issues as well. Diet over anything will help you with this one.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:35 AM
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I really enjoy it as well. It's almost like meditation for me. I can think about anything and everything or absolutely nothing. I understand the injury thing, that's why I run slow and easy with low volume. It's easier for me to burn 1000 calories running then cycling. 1000 calories an hour is a tough ride, but it's a slow and easy run. I realize I would be better off spending the extra time on the bike, but with winter roads and shortened daylight, I don't want to be burnt out on the trainer. I'm still hitting my weekly training hours on the bike.
I hear ya with the diet being the key. A lot of people think they can just exercise the weight off and it doesn't work that way. I enjoy eating clean and healthy, but 2000 calories a day makes me feel like death. One of my priorities this year is to just get stronger on the bike and enjoy my time training and racing, not walking around like a zombie all day. lol...
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Old 01-09-12, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rotti View Post
I really enjoy it as well. It's almost like meditation for me. I can think about anything and everything or absolutely nothing. I understand the injury thing, that's why I run slow and easy with low volume. It's easier for me to burn 1000 calories running then cycling. 1000 calories an hour is a tough ride, but it's a slow and easy run. I realize I would be better off spending the extra time on the bike, but with winter roads and shortened daylight, I don't want to be burnt out on the trainer. I'm still hitting my weekly training hours on the bike.
I hear ya with the diet being the key. A lot of people think they can just exercise the weight off and it doesn't work that way. I enjoy eating clean and healthy, but 2000 calories a day makes me feel like death. One of my priorities this year is to just get stronger on the bike and enjoy my time training and racing, not walking around like a zombie all day. lol...
Rotti I can't remember if you posted this but how big are you?
I'm think I'm the current heavyweight of the forum but might be able to help you out a little.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rotti View Post
I really enjoy it as well. It's almost like meditation for me. I can think about anything and everything or absolutely nothing. I understand the injury thing, that's why I run slow and easy with low volume. It's easier for me to burn 1000 calories running then cycling. 1000 calories an hour is a tough ride, but it's a slow and easy run. I realize I would be better off spending the extra time on the bike, but with winter roads and shortened daylight, I don't want to be burnt out on the trainer. I'm still hitting my weekly training hours on the bike.
I hear ya with the diet being the key. A lot of people think they can just exercise the weight off and it doesn't work that way. I enjoy eating clean and healthy, but 2000 calories a day makes me feel like death. One of my priorities this year is to just get stronger on the bike and enjoy my time training and racing, not walking around like a zombie all day. lol...
Have you considered lifting weights, plyometrics, and/or spin classes? Generally speaking, all will directly affect your riding in a positive way. And both only take 1-1.5 hours / session.

I know a lot of road riders/racers avoid the gym like the plague, but I think that a certain level of basic strength in the legs and core can definitely benefit competitive cyclists when compared to no weight training at all.

Personally, I think that running is beneficial...but at a risk of minor injury. Especially when a cyclist may ride 10 months out of the year and runs only 2.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
Rotti I can't remember if you posted this but how big are you?
I'm think I'm the current heavyweight of the forum but might be able to help you out a little.
I'm sure I got you beat. But I don't really race on the road. So, you may have the title.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:46 AM
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I run a bit for cyclocross training. If you need to loose weight there's no faster way to do it then running. So that's a good thing. The only way it will help cycling though is by keeping your heart and lungs in shape. Runners who just hop on a bike can't keep up with trained cyclists and vice versa.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'm sure I got you beat. But I don't really race on the road. So, you may have the title.
Details???
Me: 5'11" - currently 217 - race at 199-206
You're a track guy so that should be close *though I look more like a track rider - ala Chris Hoy).
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Old 01-09-12, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Have you considered lifting weights, plyometrics, and/or spin classes? Generally speaking, all will directly affect your riding in a positive way. And both only take 1-1.5 hours / session.

I know a lot of road riders/racers avoid the gym like the plague, but I think that a certain level of basic strength in the legs and core can definitely benefit competitive cyclists when compared to no weight training at all.

Personally, I think that running is beneficial...but at a risk of minor injury. Especially when a cyclist may ride 10 months out of the year and runs only 2.
As discussed many times in other threads I believe 100% in weight training throughout the year (race season included) and still do lots of interval training on my spin bike. Good points carleton.
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Old 01-09-12, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
Details???
Me: 5'11" - currently 217 - race at 199-206
You're a track guy so that should be close *though I look more like a track rider - ala Chris Hoy).
I'm a track sprinter. 6'1" my goal racing weight of the season is 230# by mid summer. I'm in the mid 240s now. I look more like Sean Eadie but not nearly as fast. But, I'm working on it. 45 degree Leg press 800+, squat (ass to grass) 3x5x355, +2000W max. I've got a long way to go.



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Old 01-09-12, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'm a track sprinter. 6'1" my goal racing weight of the season is 230# by mid summer. I'm in the mid 240s now. I look more like Sean Eadie but not nearly as fast. But, I'm working on it. 45 degree Leg press 800+, squat (ass to grass) 5x255, +2000W max. I've got a long way to go.


Nice - I was around 240 in the spring. Not sure how long you've been at it but I have some insane leg workouts if you're interested. I have always trained like a powerlifter (until I blew my shoulder apart)
Max lifts before shoulder blowout (not single rep but 3-5)
Deadlift - 565
Squat - 605
Leg Press - 13 plates per side
No clue what max power is as I have never used a meter. Maybe one day.
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Old 01-09-12, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rotti View Post
Do you think running hurts your cycling in any way? I'm not talking about run training per say, just 3-4 times per week, 4-6 miles each time. I ran 6 miles at 9 min. pace yesterday, which is a very slow and easy pace for me, and ended up burning 1,000 calories. I thought since I'm battling bodyweight all the time, what an easy way to burn calories. Anyone else run, especially in the winter. Although this winter has been great for riding, it won't be long until the roads are snow covered.
Running doesn't work the same muscles. It's fine in the offseason, but probably not good right now, especially if you are battling bodyweight due to injury concerns.

That running burns more fat than cycling does is a myth as most calculators out there gives you total amount burned an hour, not net calories burned. For me, running 6.67mph for an hour (at 153lbs) gives 640kcal/hour, which is not a lot as i can average 750kJ/hr of work for 4.8 hours, and the kcal figure is likely higher.

A rule of thumb for how fast a triathlete can run, knowing his/her cycling power output for the same period of time is cycling power = running pace in m/s, assuming running on flat ground. This website states that a 155lb runner burns 1100kcal/hr (not work done, which might be closer to 1000 kJ/hr) running 10mph. This is 4.47 m/s, which would be about 4.47w/kg. At 70.5kg, this would be 1130kJ/hr, close enough for something rule of thumb. So, for 6.67mph, 3mph, or 3m/s, you would need to be 92kg or ~205lbs.

Get a trainer/roller and start riding. It's what most of us do. If the rollers are too easy, get an resistance unit.

PS. It's per se, Latin for by itself or in itself
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Old 01-09-12, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
Running doesn't work the same muscles. It's fine in the offseason, but probably not good right now, especially if you are battling bodyweight due to injury concerns.

That running burns more fat than cycling does is a myth as most calculators out there gives you total amount burned an hour, not net calories burned. For me, running 6.67mph for an hour (at 153lbs) gives 640kcal/hour, which is not a lot as i can average 750kJ/hr of work for 4.8 hours, and the kcal figure is likely higher.

A rule of thumb for how fast a triathlete can run, knowing his/her cycling power output for the same period of time is cycling power = running pace in m/s, assuming running on flat ground. This website states that a 155lb runner burns 1100kcal/hr (not work done, which might be closer to 1000 kJ/hr) running 10mph. This is 4.47 m/s, which would be about 4.47w/kg. At 70.5kg, this would be 1130kJ/hr, close enough for something rule of thumb. So, for 6.67mph, 3mph, or 3m/s, you would need to be 92kg or ~205lbs.

Get a trainer/roller and start riding. It's what most of us do. If the rollers are too easy, get an resistance unit.

PS. It's per se, Latin for by itself or in itself
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Old 01-09-12, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
Nice - I was around 240 in the spring. Not sure how long you've been at it but I have some insane leg workouts if you're interested. I have always trained like a powerlifter (until I blew my shoulder apart)
Max lifts before shoulder blowout (not single rep but 3-5)
Deadlift - 565
Squat - 605
Leg Press - 13 plates per side
No clue what max power is as I have never used a meter. Maybe one day.
EDIT: I wrote 5x255, it's actually 3x5x355#.

Wow, your numbers are amazing. I've never pushed hard to get past 350#. I thought my 8 plates on each side for leg press was a lot.

I've only been lifting heavy for 3 years. And only heavy in the winter and spring then I taper off.

I've been counting calories for the past 3-4 months and have identified lots of caloric bombs that I had missed before. I also realized that I wasn't eating enough protein and too much fat. I was 195# in HS with no lifting. I figure that 230# is a fair goal based on the spare tire I'm carrying around my waist hahaha.

Last edited by carleton; 01-09-12 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 01-09-12, 11:13 AM
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Carlton, aero beard?
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Old 01-09-12, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
Carlton, aero beard?
Imma grow it out so hard the UCI will ban it.
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Old 01-09-12, 11:19 AM
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I do about 6 miles twice a week during the cold months. I enjoy it.

Yes it's high impact -which increases injury risk- but those impacts also do some good. They increase bone density and improve overall tone. I also find that it improves my standing climbing and makes threshold efforts seem less painful because I'm so used to heat stress and very high heart rates.

Lastly, in my experience running injuries are pretty minor. A tender spot from overuse that goes away in a couple weeks without much disruption is nothing compared to injuries I've had from cycling. Crashing hurts.
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Old 01-09-12, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Imma grow it out so hard the UCI will ban it.
Gel it and make a fairing out of it!
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Old 01-09-12, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
EDIT: I wrote 5x255, it's actually 3x5x355#.

Wow, your numbers are amazing. I've never pushed hard to get past 350#. I thought my 8 plates on each side for leg press was a lot.

I've only been lifting heavy for 3 years. And only heavy in the winter and spring then I taper off.

I've been counting calories for the past 3-4 months and have identified lots of caloric bombs that I had missed before. I also realized that I wasn't eating enough protein and too much fat. I was 195# in HS with no lifting. I figure that 230# is a fair goal based on the spare tire I'm carrying around my waist hahaha.
Those are still some great lifts - I have always been a strong guy, one thing to remember is that with your added height there is a difference in leverage (taller is not better). I have been weight training for 20 years - just be careful once you get hurt it makes it much more difficult.
When I was lifting heavy before I was constantly blowing stuff up, once I hurt my shoulder and wrist my trainer and I adopted much more functional type training and I still get the same burn/hurt out of my workouts (yesterday's killed me and I didn't do anything super heavy).
I am very proud of my legs (I know - arrogant prick) owing to the fact that they have taken 20 years to make - I love it when kids come up in the gym and say ahhhh man those legs are gross
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Old 01-09-12, 11:23 AM
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Right now I am 190-195. I competed in powerlifting for about 10 years. I still carry a lot of muscle mass from those days. I do resistance train, but strength is not my limiter or weakness. Last year I got down to 175-180 and felt great on the bike, but felt miserable off.

As a side not, I took the middle of last summer and trained for 2 triathlons (about 6 weeks worth of training). After I scratched the tri-itch I want back to pure cycling and road racing. After the 6 week block of tri training I was much faster on the bike. I made a huge leap in fitness. Although we each have our own experiences I think there is something behind the general fitness boost from running. My buddy trains athletes from various sports and his motto is "athlete first, sport second."
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Old 01-09-12, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rotti View Post
Right now I am 190-195. I competed in powerlifting for about 10 years. I still carry a lot of muscle mass from those days. I do resistance train, but strength is not my limiter or weakness. Last year I got down to 175-180 and felt great on the bike, but felt miserable off.

As a side not, I took the middle of last summer and trained for 2 triathlons (about 6 weeks worth of training). After I scratched the tri-itch I want back to pure cycling and road racing. After the 6 week block of tri training I was much faster on the bike. I made a huge leap in fitness. Although we each have our own experiences I think there is something behind the general fitness boost from running. My buddy trains athletes from various sports and his motto is "athlete first, sport second."
I agree with this statement - sometimes I believe mind first then body.
I will always support cross training, as my dreams of being on the Tour have long since gone I want to be able to enjoy a variety of sports (outlined in another thread) and have the fitness and strength to do so. As each person is different go with what makes you happy and train hard. I have always loved the weight room (even when I was less than 160 pounds getting ready to turn pro) and always will. As it makes me happy I will always do it regardless of what else is going on in my life. If you feel running helps then do it, if only for the mental break it gives you.
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Old 01-09-12, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
Running doesn't work the same muscles.
Name the muscle groups. Both running and cycling work the large muscles of the leg and hip. The recruitment patterns and fraction of work done by each muscle wont be identical but there will be considerable overlap.

Originally Posted by echappist View Post
That running burns more fat than cycling does is a myth as most calculators out there gives you total amount burned an hour, not net calories burned.
Calories do not equal fat. There is lots of evidence that running oxidizes more fat at a given oxygen consumption than cycling.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2010 Feb;20(1):44-55.
Higher fat oxidation in running than cycling at the same exercise intensities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20190351
In conclusion, fat oxidation is significantly higher during running than during cycling at the same relative intensity expressed as either %WL(max) or %VO(2max).

Metabolism. 2003 Jun;52(6):747-52.
Fat oxidation rates are higher during running compared with cycling over a wide range of intensities.
Achten J, Venables MC, Jeukendrup AE.
Source
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12800102
Fat oxidation rates were significantly higher during the treadmill test compared with the cycle ergometer test from 55 to 80%Vo(2)max.
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Old 01-09-12, 11:46 AM
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I'm sorry, but I love when enthalpic pwns people with science!

Edit: I'm usually on the receiving end though

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Old 01-09-12, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
Name the muscle groups. Both running and cycling work the large muscles of the leg and hip. The recruitment patterns and fraction of work done by each muscle wont be identical but there will be considerable overlap.



Calories do not equal fat. There is lots of evidence that running oxidizes more fat at a given oxygen consumption than cycling.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2010 Feb;20(1):44-55.
Higher fat oxidation in running than cycling at the same exercise intensities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20190351
In conclusion, fat oxidation is significantly higher during running than during cycling at the same relative intensity expressed as either %WL(max) or %VO(2max).

Metabolism. 2003 Jun;52(6):747-52.
Fat oxidation rates are higher during running compared with cycling over a wide range of intensities.
Achten J, Venables MC, Jeukendrup AE.
Source
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12800102
Fat oxidation rates were significantly higher during the treadmill test compared with the cycle ergometer test from 55 to 80%Vo(2)max.
U a smarty pants 2
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