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team tactics... "don't bother"

Old 01-19-12, 11:41 AM
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Creakyknees
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team tactics... "don't bother"

According to Mr. Tilford, anyway. I don't entirely disagree. I will say, effective team tactics in the lower cats are uncommon, but that doesn't mean they are impossible.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=17435
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Old 01-19-12, 12:10 PM
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cross is a pretty weird example to open with

not a particuarly team tactical friendly discipline usually.

the biggest virtue of lower cat teams is just brute force.

if you have 4 guys capable of contesting a finish, and you just keep launching one after another, you have a better mathematical chance than the lone teammateless dude who has to follow every move cuz he cant risk missing the winning attack. (unless that dude reads races better and has good instincts on which moves to let go and which ones to follow, which certainly happens.)

its a numbers game.

once you have 3-4 teams who are all in that position it seems to turn into a cluster. then it feels like the solo dudes get more of a chance.

mainly it bugs me when i'm solo in the pack and its time to start chasing down a break and theres like 3 teams of 5+ guys and none of them will do any work. why are you here guys?
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Old 01-19-12, 12:17 PM
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I responded
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Old 01-19-12, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by badhat View Post

mainly it bugs me when i'm solo in the pack and its time to start chasing down a break and theres like 3 teams of 5+ guys and none of them will do any work. why are you here guys?
Maybe those 3 teams have guys in the break.
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Old 01-19-12, 12:19 PM
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Initially Tilford criticizes a team in a cross race, and there I understand. Cross racing is kind of like time trialing, it's about fitness. Some strong cross racer could lead me all they want but I won't be very fast after 30 seconds.

He also criticizes some bad teamwork on the road, which I also understand.

But seriously, if it weren't for teamwork, racing wouldn't be quite so much fun. Even at the lower categories.
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Old 01-19-12, 12:19 PM
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ZeCanon used to point out a lot that the nice thing about being on a good collegiate team was that they really did drill in meaningful teamwork. Ive ridden a lot with the CSU kids and they in particular have a really good sense of how to mitigate strength disadvantages with race smarts and teamwork. the problem isnt that teamwork doesnt WORK in the lower cats, its that theres not really a mechanism in place in most local scenes to teach (and reward) effective teamwork.

so what you often get is people doing dumb stuff and going too hard at the wrong times and then when they get dropped or blowup and a teammate top 10s, they can claim they were working for him.
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Old 01-19-12, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
Maybe those 3 teams have guys in the break.
i wouldnt be complaining about those dudes.
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Old 01-19-12, 12:20 PM
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that taking charge too early thing works for me a lot. some NE team took the last two laps of new britain in 2010 and basically gift wrapped the win for me. their guy got second and the state crit title, but I passed him like he was lugging an anchor.
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Old 01-19-12, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by badhat View Post
mainly it bugs me when i'm solo in the pack and its time to start chasing down a break and theres like 3 teams of 5+ guys and none of them will do any work. why are you here guys?
I love that. Also when one of them actually starts to work and then yells at me, riding solo, for not doing enough. WTF, you got 4 guys wearing your same jersey sitting on. How about yelling at _those_ guys.
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Old 01-19-12, 12:28 PM
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Isn't this where you learn the tactics though? Discussing, planning, adapting. Sometimes there's just some really strong riders who can catch everything and take it at the end. Learning to attack, counter, hold position, lead out, etc. are all things that are useful even if they don't end up contributing to an overall win for the team.
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Old 01-19-12, 12:28 PM
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ask fabian cancellara about how it feels to be alone on the pointy end of a good team tactical bludgeoning
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Old 01-19-12, 01:26 PM
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Tilford is a d'bag. I had way too many bad interactions with him over the last weekend to ever make me think otherwise. He is not a champion nor any sort of asset to any part of the cycling industry, community or legacy in any way.
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Old 01-19-12, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Tilford is a d'bag. I had way too many bad interactions with him over the last weekend to ever make me think otherwise. He is not a champion nor any sort of asset to any part of the cycling industry, community or legacy in any way.
Do tell? Come on, it's just us here. Spill the juice.
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Old 01-19-12, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Tilford is a d'bag. I had way too many bad interactions with him over the last weekend to ever make me think otherwise. He is not a champion nor any sort of asset to any part of the cycling industry, community or legacy in any way.
I have to agree here. I've raced with him quite a bit, and you can definitely tell he is pretty arrogant. I suppose he is somewhat justified, but it still comes off pretty d'bag like.
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Old 01-19-12, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by badhat View Post
mainly it bugs me when i'm solo in the pack and its time to start chasing down a break and theres like 3 teams of 5+ guys and none of them will do any work. why are you here guys?
I can't speak for the rest of the country, but out here, the Cat 3 peloton is lazy.

Exploit that.

Teammates can help, but they aren't necessary.
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Old 01-19-12, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by SalsaPodio View Post
I have to agree here. I've raced with him quite a bit, and you can definitely tell he is pretty arrogant. I suppose he is somewhat justified, but it still comes off pretty d'bag like.
Is he worse than me?

BTW I have been on the tail end of crappy team tactics in the past. After one race my wife went up to a team manager with a big smile and said "Good job, way to go", he said "Oh thanks", she said "Your guys couldn't beat him in the sprint so you thought you would box him in", he said "No idea what you're talking about", my wife said "I guess he showed you "
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Old 01-19-12, 02:02 PM
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I doubt it.
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Old 01-19-12, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
Is he worse than me?

BTW I have been on the tail end of crappy team tactics in the past. After one race my wife went up to a team manager with a big smile and said "Good job, way to go", he said "Oh thanks", she said "Your guys couldn't beat him in the sprint so you thought you would box him in", he said "No idea what you're talking about", my wife said "I guess he showed you "
Never raced against you so I couldn't say, although you are over 200 pounds so even if I did think you were a d'bag you wouldn't know it
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Old 01-19-12, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
I doubt it.
Ouch and coffee-stained punk comes in for the ball kick...
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Old 01-19-12, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SalsaPodio View Post
Never raced against you so I couldn't say, although you are over 200 pounds so even if I did think you were a d'bag you wouldn't know it
I'm all talk...

I'm actually a lot of fun I just don't put up with cr@p that could get me or others hurt.
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Old 01-19-12, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rkwaki View Post
Ouch and coffee-stained punk comes in for the ball kick...
thats the only way I can hurt a fatty like you...
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Old 01-19-12, 02:14 PM
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I once got into with a 200 pound angry guy after a race.

me: what? you're going to kick my ass? really? you figured that out all by yourself? why don't you go and show what a big tough guy you are and hit me?
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Old 01-19-12, 02:18 PM
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and?

I once (many years ago, 19 yrs old, weighing maybe a buck-forty) got my ass kicked by 3 guys, all much bigger than myself...one of them was hitting me with a sock that had bars of soap in it. teh suck. Pee'd blood for a bit.
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Old 01-19-12, 02:23 PM
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ouch. no he saw it was pointless.
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Old 01-19-12, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
and?

I once (many years ago, 19 yrs old, weighing maybe a buck-forty) got my ass kicked by 3 guys, all much bigger than myself...one of them was hitting me with a sock that had bars of soap in it. teh suck. Pee'd blood for a bit.
Was that when you did your first prison sentence?
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