Can doing intervals to improve your 1 minute and 5 minute power also improve FTP?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 231
Bikes: Carbon Fuji, Cannondale Caad 8, Schwinn Homegrown
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Can doing intervals to improve your 1 minute and 5 minute power also improve FTP?
So I have a limited amount of time to train this year - usually just 5-6 hours per week. I've never placed any focus on the anaerobic stuff (as my e-wang chart will verify!). But since I've got such limited time to train I've been doing the following workouts for the last 2-3 weeks:
Monday: 1 hour: 7x1 Minute at 150% ftp
Tuesday: 1 hour: base or recovery (depending on how I feel)
Thursday: 1 hour: 4x5 Minute intervals at 110-120% of ftp
Sat: 3 hours total: 1 hour at ftp and 6-10 10 second sprints. 2 hours base.
Last Saturday my hour at FTP was the highest it's been. Could it be because I'm finally doing some anaerobic work?
-s
Monday: 1 hour: 7x1 Minute at 150% ftp
Tuesday: 1 hour: base or recovery (depending on how I feel)
Thursday: 1 hour: 4x5 Minute intervals at 110-120% of ftp
Sat: 3 hours total: 1 hour at ftp and 6-10 10 second sprints. 2 hours base.
Last Saturday my hour at FTP was the highest it's been. Could it be because I'm finally doing some anaerobic work?
-s
#3
impressive member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: fort collins
Posts: 2,706
Bikes: c'dale supersix, jamis trilogy, spec. tricross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
i dont wanna dig up the literature, and i'm sure someone else will, but apparently a pretty hardcore, committed tabata (8x:20x:10 *4-5 sets) regimen can boost FTP bigtime.
Last edited by badhat; 01-19-12 at 12:46 PM.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 856
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There is a downside though, right? Isn't the common belief that while very intense training like that can produce results quickly, it can only be sustained for a relatively short time?
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 231
Bikes: Carbon Fuji, Cannondale Caad 8, Schwinn Homegrown
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sweet! Thanks for the response - I may add this in next month. I did pretty much all 45-60 minute FTP intervals in December. I'm following the schedule above through the end of January at least (longer if it's still generating results).
#7
impressive member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: fort collins
Posts: 2,706
Bikes: c'dale supersix, jamis trilogy, spec. tricross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
seems like cardiovascular adaptation is cardiovascular adaptation, irrespective of the stress that induced it, but i dunno.
the downside (for me anyway) is that i'd rather eat glass than do tabatas 2 or 3 times a week for 6 weeks.
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 231
Bikes: Carbon Fuji, Cannondale Caad 8, Schwinn Homegrown
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That's probably correct. My thinking is that I'm only training 5-6 hours weekly so my body has lots of time to recover vs. an 8 hour + kind of training schedule. Also, I'll be throwing in rest weeks occasionally to let myself recover. If I start getting any of the over training warning signs then I'll do an easy week or two.
#10
Wheelsuck
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Make Tuesday harder. You've got time to recover. You should be able to make that at least an SST day if not a 2x20's day. You'll be rested going into every other ride, so they can all have a lot of anaerobic content. This one you might have to pull it back a little, but it can still be pretty tough. If you're only riding 6 hours a week, then all 6 have to count.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
Make Tuesday harder. You've got time to recover. You should be able to make that at least an SST day if not a 2x20's day. You'll be rested going into every other ride, so they can all have a lot of anaerobic content. This one you might have to pull it back a little, but it can still be pretty tough. If you're only riding 6 hours a week, then all 6 have to count.
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 231
Bikes: Carbon Fuji, Cannondale Caad 8, Schwinn Homegrown
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
-s
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
#14
Killing Rabbits
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,697
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 278 Post(s)
Liked 217 Times
in
102 Posts
Highly intense exercise is very effective at improving fitness but it has downsides if used chronically.
There appears to be an intensity threshold around 80% of VO2max where the fight-or-flight response to stress is strongly activated (sympathetic nervous system, catecholamines, adrenocorticotropic hormones, cortisol, yadda yadda). While these changes temporarily give you “superhuman strength” prolonged activation leads to negative health effects and hampers recovery (insufficient parasympathetic activity, hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal/gonadal system disregulation, etc).
Since we know that exercise at intensities between 50 – 80% VO2max can increase fitness for prolonged periods without screwing you up too much it should probably make up the majority of your training except for particular periods. Of course you can mess yourself up with too much volume too…
#15
I need speed
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 5,550
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
The guy lives and breathes this stuff, as well as nutrition, and I hope I presented his concepts correctly.
#16
out walking the earth
your mileage may vary, but my favorite workout is getting on the trainer and jamming it for an hour. get off. be glad it's over. write down your favorite metric and beat it next time. I like to suffer though.
#17
Wheelsuck
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
According to the physiologist working with our team, because anaerobic effort doesn't require O2, anaerobic workouts over an extended period of time can reduce your capacity to burn O2. You want all the mitochondria, red blood cells and capillaries you can make. And, since anaerobic capacity can be built quickly, he considers it far better to do the anaerobic workouts in the 11 days before a race, thereby minimizing any negative adaptation (reduction in your ability to burn O2). The more O2 you transport to your muscles, the more fat and glucose you can burn. The best way to build VO2MAX is working in the ~.85 RER range, not at VO2MAX, which he says teaches your body that it doesn't need O2.
The guy lives and breathes this stuff, as well as nutrition, and I hope I presented his concepts correctly.
The guy lives and breathes this stuff, as well as nutrition, and I hope I presented his concepts correctly.
If you have the time an patience, I think you can probably get 90-95% of your potential fitness maximum with nothing more intense than SST work. Keep in mind, we're talking about a hell of a lot of riding, but I think it's probably there.
#18
Wheelsuck
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Your Saturday ride is very important. It's the only thing that will allow you to build any endurance. If you've got 3 hours of ride time, then you need to be pedaling for 2:50+ of it. None of this "Met the group and screwed around for 15 minutes, then rode at 100 watts while we BS'd, then went hard for a 1/2 hour, then stopped at the coffee shop." It's got to be 3 hours of a mix of riding. Everything from endurance pace to full gas stuff. Mix it up, but keep rolling as much of those 3 hours as you can.
#19
a runner no more
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Posts: 261
Bikes: Raleigh Competition C6 Fusion
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That doesn't sound right to me. Going anaerobic doesn't mean you don't use O2 - it just means that the energy in excess of what can be provided by the aerobic system has to be delivered by the anaerobic metabolism. Still, there may be other reasons why developing the anaerobic side comes at the expense of the aerobic end.
#20
Wheelsuck
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That doesn't sound right to me. Going anaerobic doesn't mean you don't use O2 - it just means that the energy in excess of what can be provided by the aerobic system has to be delivered by the anaerobic metabolism. Still, there may be other reasons why developing the anaerobic side comes at the expense of the aerobic end.
If you only train at the anaerobic level, then your body becomes so used to burning carbohydrates directly, that it starts to ignore the fact that it can burn fats stores aerobically to fuel lower intensity work. Burning fats is a more labor intensive process for your body, so it will tend towards taking the easy path of burning carbs, even at lower intensities. Pretty soon, you're burning an inordinate amount of carbs and producing excessive H+ ions even at relatively low intensities (i.e. while sitting in) which starts to rob you of your high end.
We all tend to shut down once lactate reaches a certain concentration (12-15mmo/L or so). So the more fats you use (i.e. the better trained your aerobic system), the higher power you're able to produce on the aerobic side and the less you rely on the anaerobic system. When you do engage your anaerobic system fully, you're making more total power before you shut down because you're producing fewer waste by-products (which can be correlated to blood lactate concentration).
Does that make any sense?
#22
Reasonably Slow...
If two people have the same FTP, but one has better AC, they will do better in the test. Guess that's more a function of an imperfect test than anything.
#23
Wheelsuck
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The aerobic and anaerobic systems are not mutually exclusive. They are both in play at anything over a fairly modest output. Anaerobic (type 2 & 2x) muscles are working at FTP, so training them is bound to make them stronger and in the near term, engaging more of the anaerobic system at FTP will increase output (and lactate / H+ ions). In the longer term, it will start to hurt FTP because your aerobic system will start to disengage at higher work levels and let the carb-burning fast-twitch muscles take over. This is why if you only do short, hard workouts people say that you can have a good peak, but it won't last for long.
This is also why we base train at an endurance pace. You want your body to ignore the anaerobic system and really train it to use body fat as a fuel. Say, for argument's sake, normally these muscles can provide 45% of your VO2max output. A well developed aerobic system may be able to provide 50%+ of your output at VO2max. This can be a substantial power gain even though you haven't done any training at VO2max. Likewise, it's why coaches warn you to stay away from zone 3 workouts, especially in base. These engage the anaerobic system enough to make your body want to start burning carbs, but not enough to really stress the anaerobic system into adaptations.
When you do establish good aerobic fitness with proper base training you can see a peak closer to your genetic ultimate. Once you start training the high end, you can make your big gains in anaerobic fitness and still have the aerobic base which has yet to fade. This philosophy is at the heart of training with periodization.
#24
Wheelsuck
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669
Bikes: Yes
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'm not going to argue the science, either. I think if you realistically only have 5-6 hours/week to train, your training should be heavily periodized over the season with at least 3-4 peaks, and you should be using a system like Time Crunched.
Does doing anaerobic work improve FTP? IMO it may indirectly. The thing that helps me with FTP the most in terms of benefits/time is to do some longer medium efforts on top of a good strong base. My favorite FTP workout is 1-2 hours of tempo with sprints to 160%-200% of FTP every 3 minutes.
Does doing anaerobic work improve FTP? IMO it may indirectly. The thing that helps me with FTP the most in terms of benefits/time is to do some longer medium efforts on top of a good strong base. My favorite FTP workout is 1-2 hours of tempo with sprints to 160%-200% of FTP every 3 minutes.