"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Identifying Cycling Talent

Old 01-25-12, 09:13 AM
  #1  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Identifying Cycling Talent

The subject of how racers got into the sport has been touched upon before. Some come to the sport at an early or late age, some have parents that are cyclists, some have been "talent ID'd", and some come to the sport on their own. There are many stories of "I did the ______ race for fun and as it turns out, I was pretty good." but at a relatively late age.

As a team, British Cycling has produced some remarkable results lately and I stumbled across this woman's website.

I started cycling in 2004, aged 15, having gained a place on British Cycling's Talent Team programme. I was not a cyclist previously and when British Cycling's talent scouts came to carry out testing on the school playing field I thought I may as well go and see what it was all about. As it turns out this decision changed my life completely! Tests were carried out on mountain bikes which they provided and involved a sprint and endurance test against the clock. I was surprised to hear my times were good enough to be invited back for further testing, this time a lot more scientific where our power outputs were measured on static bikes. It was in this test I really shone and was recognised as having potential! A 3rd stage of testing followed before I learned I had gained a place on the Talent Team, one of only 5 girls in the region. The Talent Team introduced me to all the different cycling disciplines and my first full racing season was in 2005 as a first year junior where I made my mark by winning the Junior Women′s National 2k Individual Pursuit title.
via: http://joannarowsell.com/about.html

4 years later she won a world championship on the track and went on to accomplish:
- 2x World Champion
- 4x World Championship Medallist
- 3x World Records
- Etc...

It's pretty safe to say that she would not have been a cyclist if it were not for such a program. Not all great cyclists will have been racing since they were 8.

Jamie Staff (formerly of the British National Team) has done some similar things as Sprint coach of the US National team (albeit on a much smaller level). He's invited people (cyclists and non-cyclists) to the Home Depot Center velodrome to hop on the Wattbike and run some tests.

I think the national teams of other countries have similar programs. How do other countries or programs identify talent?
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 09:26 AM
  #2  
rkwaki
soon to be gsteinc...
 
rkwaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nayr497's BFF
Posts: 8,564
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I want to say that the great hammerhead Jens was identified as young man and went through a similar process in Germany.
rkwaki is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 09:54 AM
  #3  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Further...

Cycling is an expensive sport. It's much easier for a kid to get his/her parents to invest in the sport (equipment, coaching, travel) if they have been identified as a talent by a reputable organization. I know of one particular 16 year old boy in Atlanta who has got raw talent on the bike. But, his parents (for one reason or another) won't invest time or money into his cycling. I've seen him ride an ill-fitting piece of crap road bike 30 miles to the velodrome after school, borrow a loaner track bike, race, kick a little butt, then ride 30 miles home all because he loves racing his bike. But, he says his mom couldn't care less. He says it's much easier for him to play football/basketball on the HS team after school...so that's what he's probably gonna do. He's a mediocre football/basketball player and an above average cyclist. I've talked in-depth with this kid. He LOVES cycling. I can hear it in his voice how he has big dreams.

Track racing is a good example. Especially since it seems to be a great feeder into road racing. There are countless road racers that started with success on the track (Cavendish, Wiggins, Phinney, Theo Bos...)
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 10:01 AM
  #4  
rkwaki
soon to be gsteinc...
 
rkwaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nayr497's BFF
Posts: 8,564
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Further...

Cycling is an expensive sport. It's much easier for a kid to get his/her parents to invest in the sport (equipment, coaching, travel) if they have been identified as a talent by a reputable organization. I know of one particular 16 year old boy in Atlanta who has got raw talent on the bike. But, his parents (for one reason or another) won't invest time or money into his cycling. I've seen him ride an ill-fitting piece of crap road bike 30 miles to the velodrome after school, borrow a loaner track bike, race, kick a little butt, then ride 30 miles home all because he loves racing his bike. But, he says his mom couldn't care less. He says it's much easier for him to play football/basketball on the HS team after school...so that's what he's probably gonna do. He's a mediocre football/basketball player and an above average cyclist. I've talked in-depth with this kid. He LOVES cycling. I can hear it in his voice how he has big dreams.

Track racing is a good example. Especially since it seems to be a great feeder into road racing. There are countless road racers that started with success on the track (Cavendish, Wiggins, Phinney, Theo Bos...)
Great post. I was fortunate to have parents who believed in athletics.
When I was racing as a young man if there was no room on the team van or the van wasn't going my mom would drive me/us, she cooked for us, packed all our snacks, drove in both directions so we could rest, she fed us our musettes through the feed zone (if there weren't any of our juniors at the race) and was there to pack out stuff up afterwards. There were times where we drove 8 hours to race. Unfortunately though it is a team sport it is very different than football/basketball etc. and I feel for the young man in Atlanta as you do need the support of a parent to be successful (unless there is a developmental team that will pick him up and take care of everything).
rkwaki is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 10:38 AM
  #5  
Creakyknees
ride lots be safe
 
Creakyknees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,223
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Great thread.

I think the "how" to identify talent is not the challenge. Clearly, the Brits have a method that works, so anybody could build a similar approach.

The challenge is the "who" - e.g. who is going to contact the schools, deal with administration, set up all the meetings, etc etc etc.

A secondary challenge (but still big) is money. Like the kid that Carleton mentioned... if Mom and Dad can't / won't pay for the gear, who will?

For anyone who's interested, check out http://www.texashighschoolcycling.org/


p.s. even with a world class velodrome, the very high income, family oriented suburb of Frisco, TX, and a community college next door, the junior dev programs at the Superdrome are almost exclusively kids of racers.
Creakyknees is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 10:46 AM
  #6  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've thought that if you want to find good potential cyclist, you should look at high school running. Cross-country stuff for more of a climber and a 400-800 track runner for crit type stuff. If you find someone that is killing it in either one of those 2 disciplines, then they've got the correct makeup for a bike racer. Now the question of whether they want to do it is a completely different matter.
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 10:51 AM
  #7  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
BTW, I hope to hell that my kids are into the cycling stuff in high school. First, because I can see it being a great experience for them and second because I'd like to do it with them. I can certainly see myself as a volunteer high school MTB team coach. Spawn 1 has been spending time at the BMX track lately. I enjoy it at least as much as she does. I try not to be the stereotypical soccer dad. We're just there for fun, but it's really cool to see her in a competition that she actually enjoys. I just picked up a CL race bike for her instead of the Target special that she's been on. I'm curious to see how it goes for her next time out, which is probably going to be Sunday.
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 10:55 AM
  #8  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
I've thought that if you want to find good potential cyclist, you should look at high school running. Cross-country stuff for more of a climber and a 400-800 track runner for crit type stuff. If you find someone that is killing it in either one of those 2 disciplines, then they've got the correct makeup for a bike racer. Now the question of whether they want to do it is a completely different matter.
I agree.

I think the big hurdle is to get these kids on a bike for the testing and have some empirical evidence as British Cycling did in their tests. Like actually going to HS track teams and putting them on bikes (or WattBikes) one day.

My personal story, in 2009 I started racing track for fun. I was grossly overweight (BF% was probably 30+ percent). The first sprint night I hung tight with a slower CAT-B racer. During the recap, the race director asked me what gear I was running, I said "I don't know...48/16." (a warmup gear) and was impressed by my legspeed as an untrained, out of shape, fat racer. So, that was effectively my "Talent ID" moment...at age 35. I've been relatively successful since then (emphasis on the "relatively").
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 11:11 AM
  #9  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
Great thread.

I think the "how" to identify talent is not the challenge. Clearly, the Brits have a method that works, so anybody could build a similar approach.

The challenge is the "who" - e.g. who is going to contact the schools, deal with administration, set up all the meetings, etc etc etc.

A secondary challenge (but still big) is money. Like the kid that Carleton mentioned... if Mom and Dad can't / won't pay for the gear, who will?

For anyone who's interested, check out http://www.texashighschoolcycling.org/


p.s. even with a world class velodrome, the very high income, family oriented suburb of Frisco, TX, and a community college next door, the junior dev programs at the Superdrome are almost exclusively kids of racers.
Maybe USA Cycling could take start small and test dominant national level track stars like that national level amateur track & field league (I can't recall the name). But I guess that could be seen as poaching.
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 12:14 PM
  #10  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
One of the teams that I'm considering joining for 2012 has a main mission of recruiting and developing young Juniors, in particular ages 14-18. The Juniors will get the vast majority of the sponsorship, race fees paid, transportation, and mentoring from a group of Masters that race on the same team. The idea is to use this as a feeder into the more established and prosperous U23 focused teams that have younger P/1/2 riders as their mentors.

I think the 14-18 age group is a sweet spot. USAC and a lot of the elite teams are already focused on the U23 class of racers, riders that have experience and have national and world class potential that are ready for prime time. What's missing is the grassroots development as Carleton mentioned in his OP. There's no reason why small shop-based teams couldn't supplement their existing recruiting methods with an open-invitation Computrainer weekend at the shop. Make it fun, call it racing, maybe give some small prizes.

I believe the recent USAC rule changes for "young Juniors" might be a small recognition of the potential growth of this class of riders.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 12:16 PM
  #11  
learnmedia
Go, Dog. Go!
 
learnmedia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 709

Bikes: '09 Fuji Team; '11 PedalForce QS3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post

...Track racing is a good example. Especially since it seems to be a great feeder into road racing. There are countless road racers that started with success on the track (Cavendish, Wiggins, Phinney, Theo Bos...)
And for sprinters like Jamie Staff and Cavendish it seems BMX was the feeder into track, both being single speed and helping develop the ability to turn cranks at high RPMs. It's also known to develop bike handling skills early. Although the progression moreso seems to be BMX to MTB for obvious reasons.
learnmedia is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 12:19 PM
  #12  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The latest Junior National CX Champion (15yo) is also a 2x BMX National Champion. Great kid. He races road with a 48T.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 12:24 PM
  #13  
Pistard
Senior Member
 
Pistard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbia county, NY
Posts: 572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In France, cycling is like # 4 after Soccer, Rugby , F1 racing, here it is very close to the bottom, after skiing and bowling.... so sad
Pistard is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 01:26 PM
  #14  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by learnmedia View Post
And for sprinters like Jamie Staff and Cavendish it seems BMX was the feeder into track, both being single speed and helping develop the ability to turn cranks at high RPMs. It's also known to develop bike handling skills early. Although the progression moreso seems to be BMX to MTB for obvious reasons.
BMX is a great feeder into track racing. Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton came from BMX as well. But, Jamie Staff is quoted in the book "Heroes Villains and Velodromes" as saying that pro level BMXers would prefer to race BMX because they can make 6-figure salaries. They can't do that in track racing.

There is also Shanaze Reade (Team Sky Track Cycling) who moonlights as a track racer. She's won 3 Senior and 1 Junior World Championships in BMX and 2 as a track cyclist (with 1 silver).
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 01:42 PM
  #15  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Did somebody say Victoria Pendleton?...

carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 02:16 PM
  #16  
SalsaPodio
Senior Member
 
SalsaPodio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 965

Bikes: 2012 Parlee Z5

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
I've thought that if you want to find good potential cyclist, you should look at high school running. Cross-country stuff for more of a climber and a 400-800 track runner for crit type stuff. If you find someone that is killing it in either one of those 2 disciplines, then they've got the correct makeup for a bike racer. Now the question of whether they want to do it is a completely different matter.
As a former track runner who did 52 sec 400s and sub 2 minute 800s I agree with this.
SalsaPodio is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 02:24 PM
  #17  
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,130

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
BMX is a great feeder into track racing.
We have a BMX national champ woman in town who was a Cheerwine pro, among other teams, and did very well in NRC crits. Another current Cat 1 locally, who went from 5 -> 1 in a season (IIRC), was a pro (or at least elite) BMX racer in the past.
waterrockets is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 02:25 PM
  #18  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SalsaPodio View Post
As a former track runner who did 52 sec 400s and sub 2 minute 800s I agree with this.
When did you start racing bikes?
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 02:46 PM
  #19  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
We have a BMX national champ woman in town who was a Cheerwine pro, among other teams, and did very well in NRC crits. Another current Cat 1 locally, who went from 5 -> 1 in a season (IIRC), was a pro (or at least elite) BMX racer in the past.
I recall that Andy Coggan once wrote that the highest W/Kg value that he'd ever personally recorded/analyzed came from a BMXer. I think it was 25-30 W/Kg during a gate start.

Also:
By recruiting additional upper-body musculature, standing out of the saddle increases the maximal power that an individual can produce by roughly 10%. With the exception of experienced BMX riders, however, few cyclists are well-practiced at pedaling both rapidly and powerfully while standing. As well, the need to support 100% of body mass means that fatigue may develop more rapidly.
-- Coggan via http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/

Last edited by carleton; 01-25-12 at 02:52 PM.
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 02:49 PM
  #20  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SalsaPodio View Post
As a former track runner who did 52 sec 400s and sub 2 minute 800s I agree with this.
Interesting, especially considering your quick rise on bikes. When I look at the guys who were strong in those 2 races, you see some really strong natural talent. With the 400 you basically see short term Nueromusclar-AC power and with the 800 you get to see the longer term AC power. For a crit race, if you've got those 2 things, you're looking pretty good.
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 02:53 PM
  #21  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've watched some of the older guys at the bmx track. Most are a bit chubby. They can freakin' fly on the bike, though, literally and figuratively. I can borrow my brother-in-laws bike any time to try it, but I'm pretty sure they'd kill me before we get to the first turn.

Another thing about kids racing bmx. They have some really impressive bike handling skills. You see 10-12 year old kids leaning on and elbowing each other while sprinting and going through whoops, but at the same time not really changing their line. It's cool to watch.
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 02:59 PM
  #22  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,496
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1181 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Found it:

The question then arises as to what might account for the greater fatigue resistance (lesser fatigability) of the cyclists C and D compared to riders A and B. One possibility, of course, is a difference in fitness/conditioning, and indeed other men at the camp seemed to be somewhat lacking in this respect. This did not, though, appear to be true for cyclists A and B. Another possibility is an inherent difference in muscle fiber type, i.e., it is possible that cyclists A and B fatigued more rapidly because they had a higher percentage of type II, or fast-twitch, muscle fibers. As shown in Table 1, however, the slope of the AEPF-CPV relationship was similar in all four men (and indeed across all of those tested, including a rider who recorded what to my knowledge is the highest-ever 5 s human power output of 25.2 W/kg), suggesting that they were all also similar with respect to muscle fiber type (a higher percentage of type II fibers would be associated with a shallower slope of the AEPF-CPV line, i.e., force and hence power would fall off less rapidly with increases in CPV and hence muscle shortening velocity).
http://www.trainingandracingwithapow...rmance-at.html

That is FIVE seconds at 25 W/Kg. So, for a 180lb rider, that's an average of 2,058W for 5 seconds. Crazy.
carleton is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 04:50 PM
  #23  
learnmedia
Go, Dog. Go!
 
learnmedia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 709

Bikes: '09 Fuji Team; '11 PedalForce QS3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
I've watched some of the older guys at the bmx track. Most are a bit chubby. They can freakin' fly on the bike, though, literally and figuratively. I can borrow my brother-in-laws bike any time to try it, but I'm pretty sure they'd kill me before we get to the first turn.

Another thing about kids racing bmx. They have some really impressive bike handling skills. You see 10-12 year old kids leaning on and elbowing each other while sprinting and going through whoops, but at the same time not really changing their line. It's cool to watch.
Yep. My son scolds me all the time about not taking his advice to race cruiser when he raced BMX years ago. He swears I'd be a much better crit racer now.

Which track? Orange Y?
learnmedia is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 06:55 PM
  #24  
Fat Boy
Wheelsuck
 
Fat Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yep, Orange Y.
Fat Boy is offline  
Old 01-25-12, 09:22 PM
  #25  
Santaria
Senior Member
 
Santaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Brownsville, TX
Posts: 2,174

Bikes: Surly CC

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If my kids have half my endurance and half my wife's determination - they're going to be very productive in track.

On a side note, I read an article somewhere about a year ago about a cycling program that started in some low-income town somewhere near Chicago, or thereabouts. It really inspired me and got me thinking that once I finish my PhD in Athens - I might work to get a similar program going there in Atlanta. I'd love to see people find new reasons to appreciate cycling beyond "Lance" and the image associated with professional road riding being the exclusive playground of a niche group, culture, race, you get my drift.
Santaria is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.