Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Why aren't Cat 4 field limits smaller?

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Why aren't Cat 4 field limits smaller?

Old 03-07-12, 09:18 AM
  #26  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 20,665

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 641 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 42 Posts
The field limits are pretty clearly outlined in the USAC rulebook. I would be amazed if promoters are actively violating that. I'm not being sarcastic either. Field limits are supposed to be clearly outlined on the flier as well.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 11:24 AM
  #27  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,128

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
When a promoter overfills the field, at least with USAC, they have no more insurance, not for anyone. It's no longer a race run under USAC auspices because it isn't being held under USAC auspices.
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
say what, now? So let's take the example of sunday's NY spring series 3/4 race where the promoter changed the field limit and allowed significantly more than 100 riders (I don't know what the posted field limit was). Are you saying that race went off uninsured due to that fact? Sub question: could you please drop that nugget over at NY Velocity? I'm praying that guy gets his permits pulled and someone with a clue takes over that series again.
Let me clarify. There is a hard limit for Cat 5s, 50 riders. A promoter cannot, for any reason, put in 51 riders. That's no longer meeting USAC rules and you pretty much void your insurance for that event.

There's a limit for 4-5 races, 75 riders. Ditto.

There's a field limit that's supposed to be approved by USAC. USAC has to bless all the Bethel field limits. If I want to increase the field limit and I've already pulled the permits, USAC has to sign off. I'll be changing the flyer (which USAC looks at, allegedly, before issuing insurance certificates).

Now, there's some elbow room here. Bethel is approved for 125 riders. In 2011 I put a 110 3-4 field limit. This year I just made it 125, the limit that I'm approved for, for higher category races (P-1-2-3-4). I could conceivably increase the field limit of the Masters race too, or women. The 4s will stay at 100 for Bethel, and the 5s are limited to 50 by the rules.

If someone has an approval for 160 but initially permits at 100, that person could conceivably up the limit to 160, pending an okay from USAC (regional rep usually, or Colorado).

The permit includes the flyer, and if it changes substantially then USAC has to know about it. Otherwise you're lying to them and the permit isn't valid. If the permit isn't valid you have no insurance because USAC no longer stands behind you.

If that course was approved for 100, permitted for 100, and the promoter let in 160... well, I hope that he doesn't own anything substantial. That's asking for trouble.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 03:07 PM
  #28  
zigmeister
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I can tell you this, WAM Events who is running pretty much every race, rarely has anything about field size limits in the flyer, just minimums typically. Also, every flyer usually says "USAC License Pending", then I just checked the official results page on the website, there were 38 Cat 5s, and 40 Cat 4s. At the start, they said it was 80+ something riders, forget the number, like 82 or 84. So, apparently 75 means nothing down here!
zigmeister is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 03:22 PM
  #29  
climber7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England
Posts: 797

Bikes: 2010 Jamis Xenith Comp

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Let me clarify. There is a hard limit for Cat 5s, 50 riders. A promoter cannot, for any reason, put in 51 riders. That's no longer meeting USAC rules and you pretty much void your insurance for that event.

There's a limit for 4-5 races, 75 riders. Ditto.

There's a field limit that's supposed to be approved by USAC. USAC has to bless all the Bethel field limits. If I want to increase the field limit and I've already pulled the permits, USAC has to sign off. I'll be changing the flyer (which USAC looks at, allegedly, before issuing insurance certificates).

Now, there's some elbow room here. Bethel is approved for 125 riders. In 2011 I put a 110 3-4 field limit. This year I just made it 125, the limit that I'm approved for, for higher category races (P-1-2-3-4). I could conceivably increase the field limit of the Masters race too, or women. The 4s will stay at 100 for Bethel, and the 5s are limited to 50 by the rules.

If someone has an approval for 160 but initially permits at 100, that person could conceivably up the limit to 160, pending an okay from USAC (regional rep usually, or Colorado).

The permit includes the flyer, and if it changes substantially then USAC has to know about it. Otherwise you're lying to them and the permit isn't valid. If the permit isn't valid you have no insurance because USAC no longer stands behind you.

If that course was approved for 100, permitted for 100, and the promoter let in 160... well, I hope that he doesn't own anything substantial. That's asking for trouble.
so...are we assuming that the cat 4 race at grant's tomb this coming saturday - which is capped at 125, and already has 112 entries - has approval for more than 100 riders? i sure hope so. decided to double up, but i'm much more nervous about the cat 4 race than about the collegiate B race later in the day.
climber7 is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 04:58 PM
  #30  
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 20,665

Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 641 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by zigmeister View Post
I can tell you this, WAM Events who is running pretty much every race, rarely has anything about field size limits in the flyer, just minimums typically. Also, every flyer usually says "USAC License Pending", then I just checked the official results page on the website, there were 38 Cat 5s, and 40 Cat 4s. At the start, they said it was 80+ something riders, forget the number, like 82 or 84. So, apparently 75 means nothing down here!
Did they run them as separate fields? I guess i don't see the same thing that you're seeing...

If it's a 4/5 field then it's limited to 75.
If it's a 5 only field then it's 50.
If it's a 4 field....pretty sure it's limited to 100. CDR is implying that there isn't a hard limit for 4's. I know we are not allowed more than 100 in the 4's in Illinois with our local officials for sure.

You can have a 4's race and a 5's race utilizing the course at approximately the same time (with approval from the CR) just started separately - meaning they are 2 different fields. Each field then can have it's separate max. This is what happens in Road Races. In crits...it's asking for trouble.

FWIW - you can have a 4/5 race made up of 10 actual cat 4's and 65 cat 5's.....it's kind of a way to get more 5's into races. The theory is that the cat 4's in the race help to make it ....uh......'safer'....can't believe I just typed that.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels

Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 05:06 PM
  #31  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You can also break Cat5's out by age group, i.e. Cat5, Cat5 35+, Cat5 45+, etc. They can each have 50 riders.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 06:01 PM
  #32  
kensuf
My idea of fun
 
kensuf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 9,848

Bikes: '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
WAM doesn't run all of the raced in Florida. Topview ran last weekend
kensuf is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 06:10 PM
  #33  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,084
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
WAM doesn't run all of the raced in Florida.
I thought they broke up...

Racer Ex is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 06:15 PM
  #34  
hammy56
coffee-stained punk
 
hammy56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
theyre not from the 60's...
hammy56 is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 06:16 PM
  #35  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,084
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by hammy56 View Post
theyre not from the 60's...
I know. I would thrown them out right away.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 06:21 PM
  #36  
hammy56
coffee-stained punk
 
hammy56's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
you need to open the door farther...
hammy56 is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 06:37 PM
  #37  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,128

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
I can't remember if there's a hard 100 rider Cat 4 field limit but I don't think so. I don't feel like looking it up, BF is all the bandwidth I want to take up right now

Remember that you're talking about New York, New Jersey. There are basically no rules enforced there. Extremely dirty riding, no helmets, peeing everywhere, it's all okay. Heck the reason there's a helmet rule is because two Masters riders died a few weeks apart warming up in NJ or NY. They weren't wearing a helmet because a lot of riders would claim "I'm not racing, I'm just riding around." Okay, fine. Then they get their brains splattered all over the pavement and the estate sues USCF.

For a while the rule was that you had to wear a helmet any time you got on a bike, Monday morning commute to work, Tuesdya night when you throw a leg over your bike to roll into your garage. It didn't matter, you had to wear a helmet any time you got on a bike. This would get around the whole "I'm not racing today, I don't have a number, and you can't ask me for ID" thing. So everyone could get fined/suspended for not wearing a helmet on any day of the week. I've never seen that enforced, even in CT.

That was a bit ridiculous so they somehow worded it so you have to wear a helmet at an event, whether warming up or registering or riding to the bathroom. In New England they enforce the rule. In New York I have never, ever seen it enforced. Never. Never. Never. All the CT/MA/etc riders are wearing helmets, the NY riders are milling around with their helmets draped on their bars. That's one way how you know where a rider is from, if they wear their helmets while warming up.

So, in New York, it's a free for all. That means that if something really bad happens you may not have insurance. You may not have anyone to go to if you need more medical. The promoter will insulate himself with an LLC or something. USAC is no longer the permitting body because the promoter is breaking the rules. It's a free for all. Chop away, slam people into the curb, take short cuts, sit out a few laps, do whatever you want. I've seen all that and more, and it's okay, no official has ever acted on any complaint that I know of, not at the races I've been to. Heck, I've gone to the wrong side of an official protecting the jogger's lane (an immediate DQ move to go into the jogger's lane in NYC) when someone repeatedly chopped his rear wheel sideways at my front in the middle of the sprint. I barely missed the official (who screamed bloody murder) on one side, the chopper on the other. I placed 6th. The wheel chopper got like 10th. No talk of DQs.

You know that one year a lot of races got canceled because a walker got killed in Prospect Park, hit by one rider in the field on the descent. Another year the promoter that had the 160 rider field drove a "follow vehicle" (ATV) into the crowd after he lost control. Suddenly all the races for the rest of the year were canceled. He's done a 360 in a surplus NYC police car while driving as a follow vehicle (ATV and 360 incidents both at the Harlem Crit).

Tip: if you're moving up on the right side in a nitty gritty race, get right behind someone, yell "Right!". They'll usually swerve right to chop your wheel. Then move up on their left. It's pretty funny.

Tip: If you want the inside line in a corner and you don't want people moving up to your inside, just slalom back and forth about 5-8 feet. It's extremely effective, and I (used to) see riders doing it all the time. The guy that I saw do it first is a NYC icon, and he did it for probably 15 years, still does it when I venture into NJ.

Anyway, all that means that if a race in NY or NJ didn't follow field limit rules it wouldn't surprise me.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 07:13 PM
  #38  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That's great stuff, CDR. I never really thought about the riders without the helmets at the NY races, but now that you mention it, you're right.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 07:40 PM
  #39  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,801
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 29 Posts
thanks for the racist hate filled posts.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 07:56 PM
  #40  
climber7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England
Posts: 797

Bikes: 2010 Jamis Xenith Comp

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
yikes. well, now i can't wait to race...haha. thanks for the tips though. i guess i can consider myself better prepared.

maybe i should just go OTF at the gun.
climber7 is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 08:02 PM
  #41  
wanders
going roundy round
 
wanders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: High Point, NC
Posts: 6,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
With all the wheel chopping and slamming people into curbs, I'm surprised every race up there doesn't end up in one huge brawl. Then again, the south is known for it's politeness.

"My line? No, you can have it. You're quite welcome."
"Don't be silly... you go right ahead. I'll get the next wheel."
wanders is offline  
Old 03-07-12, 08:06 PM
  #42  
Tech Director
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Larkspur, CO
Posts: 54

Bikes: dusty ones with flat tires

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
[QUOTE=Psimet2001;13943938]
If it's a 4 field....pretty sure it's limited to 100. CDR is implying that there isn't a hard limit for 4's. I know we are not allowed more than 100 in the 4's in Illinois with our local officials for sure./QUOTE]

If no other field limit is given the default is 100 (USAC 1J7). So if no field limit is listed it is 100. Whoever in the areas signs off on permits can approve a higher limit.

Exceptions (as stated above):
- Cat. 5 races limited to 50
- Races with other categories that include Cat. 5s is 75
- Max size for races that include Cat. 4 women is 75

I find it quite common to allow P12 fields higher field limits on the same course as the other categories.
Tech Director is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 08:22 AM
  #43  
Kadowaki
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Kadowaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by wanders View Post
With all the wheel chopping and slamming people into curbs, I'm surprised every race up there doesn't end up in one huge brawl. Then again, the south is known for it's politeness.

"My line? No, you can have it. You're quite welcome."
"Don't be silly... you go right ahead. I'll get the next wheel."
This Saturday in South Carolina:
I'm about 5th or 6th within a mile of the finish of the Masters 50+. We're riding the yellow line on our left. A big guy starts leaning into me. I'm like "hey I'm old I don't want to push around, I got a job". Response: "We're all old, I want that wheel".
"I got no room, I'm pinned on the yellow line". "Well follow my wheel and you'll do well".

Never that rude in Illinois, at least not in Masters. There was a death about 2006 0r 7 in the Women's State Championship when a rider crashed and fell across the yellow line and she was run over by a car.

I respect the yellow line, rudeness is not bounded by geography, many times the fields are too large for the road.
Kadowaki is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 08:44 AM
  #44  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,128

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by wanders View Post
With all the wheel chopping and slamming people into curbs, I'm surprised every race up there doesn't end up in one huge brawl. Then again, the south is known for it's politeness.

"My line? No, you can have it. You're quite welcome."
"Don't be silly... you go right ahead. I'll get the next wheel."
When a friend of mine (from NY no less) and I went to Tour of Michigan, we were shocked at how polite everyone was. "Right!" and everyone moved left.
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 09:28 AM
  #45  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,084
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by wanders View Post
With all the wheel chopping and slamming people into curbs, I'm surprised every race up there doesn't end up in one huge brawl. Then again, the south is known for it's politeness.

"My line? No, you can have it. You're quite welcome."
"Don't be silly... you go right ahead. I'll get the next wheel."
Of course then they show up on your front lawn in the middle of the night.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 09:33 AM
  #46  
kensuf
My idea of fun
 
kensuf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 9,848

Bikes: '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '02 Kona Lavadome, '07 Giant TCR Advanced, '07 Karate Monkey

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by wanders View Post
With all the wheel chopping and slamming people into curbs, I'm surprised every race up there doesn't end up in one huge brawl. Then again, the south is known for it's politeness.

"My line? No, you can have it. You're quite welcome."
"Don't be silly... you go right ahead. I'll get the next wheel."
That stops the second you get south of the Georgia/Florida border. I really <3 racing in Georgia...
kensuf is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 09:58 AM
  #47  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,128

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
thanks for the hate filled posts.
ftfy
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 10:32 AM
  #48  
jwible
Draught
 
jwible's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 4,051

Bikes: N-1 where N = number needed

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by kensuf View Post
That stops the second you get south of the Georgia/Florida border. I really <3 racing in Georgia...
Union City in two weekends. It's the big kickoff for racing around here... I could probably even let you stay here provided you're not a psychotic tech dork.

At Albany I had to alter my line mid corner thanks to a college kids decision to use creative cornering techniques to my inside. I forced the guy to my outside into a driveway. I slowed and waited for him to get back on the road and made sure he was alright before getting back in the pack. We're just considerate like that. Or maybe it's that I think racing is fun and I don't contend races. Yet.
jwible is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 11:09 AM
  #49  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,084
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
ftfy
Incorrect. If you negatively comment on the racing in a particular region, lumping stereotypes together, you're being raceist.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 03-08-12, 11:57 AM
  #50  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,128

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Incorrect. If you negatively comment on the racing in a particular region, lumping stereotypes together, you're being raceist.
The examples I was thinking of:
Short cutter: white (and I'm not talking Adam Myerson's infamous nap for a lap in a big stage race)
Wheel chopper: white, hispanic, black, asian
Pusher: white (like in my Prospect Park helmet cam clip)
Swerver: black, white
Brake check (I didn't mention it but it's the dirty sprint story): white (done to a hispanic)

I guess it's racist because I'm not white? I don't distinguish between races, I distinguish between honorable battling and dirty backalley knifing.
carpediemracing is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.